Pastors, speakers and those who listen to them:

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Abiyah, Sep 4, 2003.

  1. Abiyah

    Abiyah
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    One of the things that drove me from the church I
    once attended was the complete lack of respect
    for the pulpit. My main complaint was error
    publicly taught from the pulpit and never corrected
    publicly, if it was ever corrected at all.

    I know that church was not the only one that
    allowed error to be publicly taught and not publicly corrected. I think the reason for this was that they
    wanted to be careful not to publicly humiliate the
    speaker. So my first questions are:

    Why is the pride of the speaker more important
    than the integrity of the pulpit?
    Why is their pride more important than the whole
    congregation?
    Why is it so difficult for speakers to admit when
    they make a mistake or to just say, "I don't know."

    Recently, my husband reminded me of something I
    had forgotten: they would occasionally allow
    speakers whom they found to be questionable to
    speak, "just to see what they would say" -- their
    words!

    Question: Why is the pulpit so unimportant that
    churches will do this? Why are those 15 to 60
    minutes not seen as too important to waste on
    trifling and nonsense?

    There is a lack of seriousness in the pastors and
    speakers toward the Word, the congregation, and
    toward people that really disturbs me. It did not
    happen just in that church; it happens in many,
    when
    </font>
    • Sunday school is seen as baby-
      sitting or as a time to fill just to get
      it over-with</font>
    • When the "special music" becomes
      entertainment</font>
    • When the music is something the
      congregation is fighting over, because
      it does not meet with each individual
      tastes</font>
    • When the speaker's sermon is a few
      words between the jokes</font>
    • When the speaker reads one or two
      verses and drones on for thirty minutes
      on unrelated topics and politics, or when
      they make a fine five-point sermon to
      explain "what Jesus is trying to say."</font>
    • When testimony time is just story
      time and more entertainment</font>
    • When the congregation is not being
      taught and doesn't even know it is
      missing anything</font>
    Do you see yourself or your church (or another)
    in this? What can we do to remedy these things?
     
  2. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
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    Hi Abiyah! [​IMG]

    I know there are churches like that, but I am so thankful that I don't attend one.

    My Pastor is always challenging us to not just take what he preaches on his word alone, but to search the scriptures (he uses many references throughout his sermons).

    My Pastor does not let anyone behind the pulpit that he does not screen and get to know first. He does not want anyone leading his flock astray. He was placed there by God to keep the wolves away...

    To me, if a Pastor 'talks the talk' but does not 'walk the walk'...he is useless.

    A shepherd must lead his flock (sheep do not lead, they follow) and who could follow a man that was not Godly, upright, preached the Word, battled sin, pointed you to Jesus, and was trustworthy?

    Blessings,
    ┬žue
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    Been there, done that, burned the t-shirt.

    I simply could not handle that kind of church which are way more common than we would like to admit.

    IFB'ers are notorious for treating the pulpit as a "bully pulpit" to harp on non-biblical issues (slacks, blacks and tracks) or regurgitate a simple simple simply salvation message which is good but not "food" for the 99% of the people in the congregation.

    Hence the rise in the PROMINENCE of expositional preaching and the DOWNPLAY of the 60-minute CCM 7/11 prelude.

    Our church now has prayer, two hymns and the preaching. THEN the other "stuff".
     
  4. gb93433

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    Religionists like those things. They are proud of their own wisdom.

    But godly men and women hate it when people present errot as truth.
     
  5. Abiyah

    Abiyah
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    You're right.
     
  6. blackbird

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    Abiyah!

    I work hard at keeping the platform area clear of things you mentioned!! Your post is incentive to try harder to keep things like you mentioned from happening wherever I'm at!

    I had an ole seminary professor make this statement once--I shall never forget it--

    "Boys! You can do just about anything you want during the week--but don't you dare waste their time between 11:30am and 12 on Sundays!" (of course, Blackbird has to modify that "12" just a little bit--we hardly ever get out when the sheep want to!!! We get out when its time to!)

    Brother David
     
  7. following-Him

    following-Him
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    Abiyah,

    I agree wholeheartedly with you. We seem to have "domesticated" the cross. In our church the preacher delivers what I can only describe as a lecture which is based on a magazine guide of what the Sunday school are doing downstairs, with anecdotes and jokes thrown in. People moan that the music is too loud,the praise songs came from the OHP instead of the hymn book, the sermon too long, the lunch will be spoilt. There is hardly any meaningful prayer time. It seems to me that Church on a Sunday is becoming more of a social gathering rather a coming together to worship and praise our Lord. Where, I ask myself is the Holy Spirit in all this. He doesn't hardly get a mention. If I hear another pastor or speaker apologise for running out of time and cutting short the Word or missing out on a closing hymn, well, I am sure I will stand up and say something. We are limiting God in too many ways already. If we are in Church to worship and praise the Lord, what right do we have to put a limit on when the Holy Spirit can speak to us? I am seriously thinking about trying to find another church. I don't feel I am worshipping at the one I attend now.

    Sheila
     
  8. Jim1999

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    Frankly, I always started on time and finished on time. A well-prepared sermon can be delivered on time, and not become a coward's castle. When I am on time, I expect at least one parent to return for the evening service, which may go a little longer.

    Sometimes we fill a service with trappings, we leave little time to listen to God. If the Holy Spirit hasn't been ministering in the first 20 minutes, why would He wait for the next 20 minutes?

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  9. blackbird

    blackbird
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    Following Him---something unusual happened this past Sunday---I got ready to preach--looked at my left wrest and realized that I had forgotten my wrist watch at home!!

    I got a little nervous in my study--looking over my notes--no time to go home and get the watch--then it dawned upon me

    Jesus didn't have a watch! He never begged for more time!

    What am I worried about a watch for?? If they "ditch" me for going over---well, I don't need to be there in the first place!

    Thanks, Abiyah and FollowingHim and NinetyNine--for encourageing me, really! I mean it!---The clock struck twelve and the church gave up her dead!

    Blackbird
     
  10. following-Him

    following-Him
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    Blackbird, when I think about all that Jesus has done for me, dying on the cross for my sins, bestowing daily blessings, always just a prayer away, Iam not prepared to put limits on His Word on a Sunday. I go to Church to praise and give thanks to our |Lord, and share in that time of praise and worship with other members of Gods family. If the Holy Spirit is moving in that place, I am not going to stop him by putting limits on him for the sake of lunch or other peoples preconceived ideas of how long a sermon should last.

    Blessings

    Sheila [​IMG]
     
  11. following-Him

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    sorry, double post

    [ September 09, 2003, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: followinghim ]
     
  12. Abiyah

    Abiyah
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    Praise our God for those who recognize the
    serious responsibility of the pulpit. As I watch it
    taken lightly by others, from those whose ethics
    are nonexistent to those who put inexperienced
    and uneducated boys in the pulpit, I realize more
    and more the responsibility upon me to pray for
    those in the pulpits, whether or not I agree with
    their theologies.

    If I pray, then I trust that my God will strengthen
    those who are, indeed, His, and He will move upon
    those who are not.
     
  13. Jim1999

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    Funny thing, when the Welsh revivals came, the preaching ceased. The people broke out in song and confessions, and the preacher couldn't preach. The witness of some of those preachers was that each time they tried to preach nothing came of it.

    Would I dismiss the congregation for such an event? Certainly not. On weekly meetings, however, I live with time constraints and I think they are proper. It respects everyone and it in no way limits the working of the Holy Spirit. That is a misconception in and of itself. If I want to preach for an hour, I just don't prepare anything, If I want to say something profitable to all, I spend hours to prepare a 20-25 minute sermon. The rule of thumb is an hour of preparation for each minute preached.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  14. Abiyah

    Abiyah
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    But Jim, you know I respect you, your thoughts,
    what you write here. I think that your concept of a
    well-structured program with time constraints is
    commendable, but not all weekly services in all
    places of worship ars are put together in that
    manner.

    For example, at my synagogue, a certain amount
    of time is, indeed, structued for the siddur
    (liturgy) and the music. But it would be
    impossible to structure the Torah, haftorah, and
    Apostolic readigs, because each of their lengths
    can vary from a few verses to three chapters.
    These are set readings, done in synagogues all
    over the world on a given Sabbath.

    When it comes to the teaching on these
    Scriptures each Sabbath, it is an open forum; we
    would be completely disappointed with a thirty-
    minute sermon. We expect the teaching with all
    the questions, answers, and discussion to last
    from around 11:45 a.m. to around 1:45 p.m. In fact,
    this is such a special time that when I first started
    attending, I would just show up at 11:45. :)

    Not all services are structured as yours is. :)
    Mine is structured to be from 10:30 a.m. to @ 1:45
    p.m. That, too, is structure.
     
  15. Jim1999

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    When I attended Westminster Chapel, the church of the late G.Campbell Morgan and Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones (he was minister at the time) the service opened with a hymn, scripture was read and a pastoral prayer offered. Then Lloyd-Jones preached for about 40-50 minutes. There was prayer, a hymn, offerings, closing hymn and benediction. That was the service each and every Sunday morning. I did not attend an evening service, but I know that people come from all over London to be there....preaching is central in that church.

    At All Souls Church (Anglican) in London, it follows a regular Anglican service and includes at 20-30 minute sermon. Listen carefully....people travel all over London to attend there.

    Two different services, yet people come to worship in either of them, faithfully. All Souls, by the way, is the evangelical of evangelicals among Anglican churches in England.

    Cheers,

    Jim

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  16. DHK

    DHK
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    A twenty minute sermon?? Or even 40 minutes for that matter. We sure are pampered in our western "civilized" societies. I know of some tribal or village areas in India, when attending a service they expect some preaching--3 to 4 hours worth! If you preach there you had better come prepared. Paul didn't cut his words short. In Acts 20 he preached from dusk to dawn--approximately 12 hours. I just think in our "rush-rush" society we have become a tad spoiled.
    DHK
     
  17. Jim1999

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    Billy Graham preached in India. His usual 20-30 minute sermon and he was well received and respected.

    Sorry, I have heard some of these long-winded preachers and I have never been impressed. Using the rule of thumb for sermon preparation, there aren't enough hours in the week to properly prepare those sermons.

    If you can't get the message across in 20-30 minutes, try another profession, and I am not talking about vain repetitions..a solid, consistent message. Even lectures in college are timed for a reason, and it has to do with concentration.

    Even the German Baptists in ALberta, when I was there, paused for lunch and then went back to services after lunch and continued with preaching and singing until 3 or 4 and they all went home for evening milking and chores. One, however, could stretch it and say they like long sermons of 6 hours, the total length of time at services.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  18. Abiyah

    Abiyah
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    A friend from school asked me to attend her church
    a couple years ago, and first, I was surprised by
    the 25 - 30 preachers on the platform! Next, I was
    surprised that several of them got up and gave a
    full-length sermon, ending with the main pastor
    giving one twice as long. This was a Russian
    church, and the whole 3-hour service was in
    Russian. They prayed several times, sang several
    songs, had special music, and recited the
    Disciples' prayer thre different times.
     
  19. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    After a service, I would rather have someone say, He could have carried on preaching, than have them say, He should have stopped an hour ago.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     

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