Pastor's Tithe & Offering

Discussion in 'Pastoral Ministries' started by blackbird, Jun 17, 2005.

  1. blackbird

    blackbird
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    Here's one that I've never encountered---just wondering how you others would handle the situation/scenerio!!

    #1---the Pastor's pay "package" is $45,000.00 annually. Out of this package---he deducts health insurance of $12,000 and basic salary reduced annuity of $6,000---both annually! Leaving him a basic salary(after these reductions) of $27,000.00.

    #2---"Joe Blow" and "Jane Doe"(members of above Pastor's congregation) salaries are $27,000.00(respectively) PLUS health benefits when added up coincidentally matches the pastor's "total package" of $45,000.00---but both "Joe" and "Jane" are tithing based on the $27,000 and not based on the total plus benefits(which they never really see---but yet its there.)

    My question is: Should the pastor be tithing on the total "package" of $45,000 or on the reduced version of $27,000 like "Joe" and "Jane" --- or should the pastor "remind" them of those "hidden" benefits that need to be counted as income for an offering????

    Bro. David
     
  2. Bob Farnaby

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    It is the pastor's responsibility to give to the Lord as he has prospered, weather its a tithe, an offering or whatever, he should do it from his heart, the decision on exactly how much is between him and God. What Joe Blow/Jane Doe is irelavent as far as the pastor is concerned.

    Likewise with Joe Blow/Jane Doe, they should give as motivated by their love for and by God.

    Assuming the US is the same as Australia, most of the salery packaging is done to minimise tax liability, the way the pay comes is irrelavent, the message is .. Give as the Lord as He prospers, and with a chearful heart. Don't be overconcerned at what others do or do not give.

    Regards
    Bob
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Why does the Pastor or "Joe and Jane" know what each other is giving? Giving is supposed to be done cheerfully out of a willing heart, not as one who pinches the pennies.
     
  4. JGrubbs

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    I agree with Bob and Pastor Larry, what anyone, including a pastor gives, is between them and the Lord, it is no one elses business. Wether it be 5%, 10% or 50%, as long as they are giving as the Lord leads cheerfully, then they are okay.
     
  5. exscentric

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    A pastor might preach on giving (not tithing) and allow God to lead the giver. He is much more adept at MOVING people, as opposed to a preacher BROWBEATING people.

    Agree, neither should be in each others business, God is able to convict if conviction is needed.
     
  6. LarryN

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    Only on very rare occasions have I heard or seen pastors whose preaching on the subject of money ventures beyond the single topic of tithes/offerings. The Bible speaks of much more in regards to the subject of money other than just this narrow focus that (most) preachers seem to home in on.

    I wish more pastors would preach the whole counsel of God's Word in regards to the subject of money. The Bible has a lot to say about debt/borrowing, lending, saving & investing, inheritances, greed, hoarding, etc.

    If these other subtopics were taught with equal fervor to Christians, then perhaps some of the root causes which supposedly prevent believers from tithing and/or giving more would be eliminated. For example, some Christians are drowning in debt. Why not address that type of issue in a Biblical light. The Bible has much to say on the topic.

    Also, statistics show that a high percentage of marital troubles & divorces are due to arguments about money (even when both spouses are Christians). It seems to me that the Church could greatly assist the Home by providing some solid, Biblical applications regarding the subject of money.

    Some parachurch organizations & authors (e.g. Ron Blue, Larry Burkett, Randy Alcorn, etc.) provide much help in this area, but why has the Church too often seemed to have abdicated this important & highly practical aspect of Christian living?
     
  7. exscentric

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    You mentioned, "Only on very rare occasions have I heard or seen pastors whose preaching on the subject of money ventures beyond the single topic of tithes/offerings. The Bible speaks of much more in regards to the subject of money other than just this narrow focus that (most) preachers seem to home in on."

    And many would agree with you, but the context of the question was bucks.
     
  8. Pastor J

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    As a Pastor who believes that the tithe is still for people today (I will not argue this with anyone), if I were in the illustration above, I would tithe on the entire $45,000 because it is my increase. What the members of the church do, is between them and God.
     
  9. Soulman

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    I have seen pastors tell their flocks to tithe on the gross and not the net. Pastors have no business telling anyone how much to give. They should give as God leads and so should their flock.

    Posted by Pastor J: As a Pastor who believes that the tithe is still for people today (I will not argue this with anyone),

    Because you would lose the argument sir! I will state and be open for discussion that tithing IS NOT for today while giving is.
     
  10. blackbird

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    Soulman---the context of the question is the difference between 45,000 and 27,000 and which should the pastor tithe/give based on----lets not discuss whether tithe is for or not for today on this thread---OK??? The subject is not whether tithing is NT biblical---all I want to know is---whether to give based on 45 or 27---see???

    Blackbird
     
  11. Karen

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    Here's my tentative opinion: give based on the $27,000.
    Health insurance can reasonably be considered not "increase" but the company paying part of an expense for the employee. It often does not cover all the cost. Thus, if you were going to tithe on the $45,000, you could make an argument for first deducting all out-of-pocket co-pays and other bills.
    What is the value of your health care, really? What if you work for a big company, and you live in an area where the health care costs are much smaller than where the majority of the employees live. Your rates are much higher because of them.

    If the church pays a pastor the money for health care, and he just turns around and buys the insurance, all they have done is reimburse him for an expense. My church doesn't do it that way. The financial secretary takes care of the insurance payments for all the staff, on the church policy. Usually group policies are more economical than you just buying your own.

    It gets very complex. Some people travel a lot and get to keep their frequent flyer miles. Should they tithe the value of those? What would the value be since the same number of miles could be used on a $100 flight or a $2000 flight? The same flight could be $59 on Priceline, $199 on Expedia, and $499 on the airline site.
    Many people have expense accounts. If they spend $15 on a business meal while traveling, and the company reimburses it, should they pay $1.50 to church?
    I would expect that most American Christians give too little and then excuse it with various rationales. (I am NOT saying that is what previous posters on this thread are doing.) But my general point is that tithing seems to be based on the principle of increase, not on paying part of an expense.
    Of course, that could be carried too far, deducting various other expenses, to get one's financial obligation to church down to zero.

    Karen
     
  12. Alcott

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    What if you had to have surgery? Even minor surgery with a quick hospital stay can easily run $30,000 for everything, with a health plan usually paying most, or nearly all of it. This is increase, is it not?... the value of services rendered obtained by you. Would you include that in your basis?

    To answer your original question, though... it's up to every individual to determine how and how much they give.
     
  13. Karen

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    Is it increase? If someone had a $30,000 hospital bill, it would be all expense. And the person would pay easily several thousand dollars of that out of pocket, depending on deductible and stop-loss.
    I see part of the issue as what really is increase and how do we measure it.
    We could end up with a very lengthy church code defining all this. :rolleyes:
    Maybe insurance is just expense till you have to use it and then if insurance pays for a $200,000 medical bill, you owe the church $20,000? That would be increase based on how you just defined it, I think. You obtained $200,000 worth of services.
    I don't think that is what it means; I am just thinking on paper about what is increase or not.

    Karen
     
  14. Karen

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    This has been an interesting topic to think about. Some people say that a Christian should tithe on the employer's part of Social Security contributions. Although others would argue that would be tithing twice, once when the contribution is made, once when the retiree receives the check and tithes.

    What if your wife's engagement ring has gone up in value, but you don't intend to sell it? Should you have it appraised periodically and pay a tithe on the implicit capital gains?

    Ten percent is a useful framework, although why 10 percent? Wasn't the combination of Old Testament tithes closer to 17 to 23 %?
    Maybe we should take 10 % as a guideline, and look for ways to increase our giving, but realize that none of us actually tithes all our increase.

    Karen
     
  15. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    Actually...the most interesting thing about this discussion is that it completely ignores the OT teaching that the tithe was never "paid" in CASH or currency of any kind...nor were the "wage-earners" EVER commanded to "tithe".It was always the fruit of the land and livestock that was given as a "tithe" to support the Levites(who had no inheritance of their own,but rather were the "keepers" of the temple,and the poor,fatherless,and widows)THAT was the purpose of bringing in "tithes" to the "storehouse".You won't hear this taught in most Baptist churches.OK Soulman.....your turn...lol!GIVE people....and be liberal and generous about it as the Lord leads you.After all...it's all His anyway!

    Greg Sr.
     
  16. Pastor J

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    Soulman,
    Is it necessary to attack someone's position, when they have clearly stated they will not argue it, not because it can't be defended, but because this thread is not about whether it is Biblical or not. Since you don't believe in tithing, your input is appreciated, but irrelevant.

    As to the subject. The tithe was to be given of your increase. Even in the NT, the offering was to be given as God hath provided us. So the question is, "What is an increase". This has been taken too far, ie. tithing on the Employer Fica. The increase is what God has given to us, whether it be money or goods, whether earned or gifted. Again, this can be taken too far in the sense that I know people who calculate market value of their gifts and then tithe off of it. We get into legalism when we go in that direction. It is the responsibility of each person to determine their increase and tithe off of it. One person may say 45k, another 27k. Which is correct? I don't know, but I do know this, that you can't out give God.
     
  17. patrick

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    I think this whole thread is falling a little on the legal side. I am considered self-employed and pay my own taxes. I tithe on my gross.

    I did some Larry Burkett stuff when I was younger. I did not give a tithe. I was getting out of debt. I gave 5% till I could give more. The Lord blesses a giver.

    How many Christians that tithe their money, tithe their time? I think that is just as important. Anyone can write a check. We have lost people tithing in our churches today. A tithe should be seen in all parts of our lives and not just checking!!!
     
  18. gb93433

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    If people tithed on the gross the employer pays they could easily add on about 30-50% more because of retirement, workers' compensation, unemployment insurance, vacation pay and health insurance.
     
  19. SaggyWoman

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    I think prayer and listening to the Holy Spirit's word in this matter would be what the folks involved need to do.
     
  20. Soulman

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    This is amazing! Here you pastors sit and try to decide how you should tithe, which figures to tithe on, the gross or the net. Yet you don't care that tithing is not a N.T principle.

    Thats ok. Go for it!

    When I was a young christian I always thought that the men of God stood for truth above anything else. I always thought that they were big enough to admit when they were wrong about biblical doctrine. Man, I was wrong! I have yet to see one pastor admit any error ever while they expect their parishioners to be humble meek submissive sheep.

    Tithe on what ever you want. Tithing is wrong. Read your bible and see for yourselves. But go ahead and continue your intellectual discussion on how much you should tithe because it doesn't matter a hill of beans.
     

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