Pat Robinson and Hati

The Sodom and Gomorrah story, like all the others in the Bible, did not occur in a vacuum. But that's how these doctrines get formed and then justified. Just take it like it occurred in a vacuum. Sodom and Gomorrah, just like Pharaoah and the Canaanites after them, were people who were in the way of Abraham and his descendants, whom God had chosen, and was leading (both physically from one place to another, as well as spiritually, of course). God did not arbitraily decide to pick one nation and punish their sins, and they certainly weren't the only one's practicing homosexuality or any other "over the top" sin. Hence, you don't hear of Him punishing Far Eastern Asians, South Pacific, subSaharan Africa or the Americas. Those people did not cross paths with Abraham/Israel.

So likewise, today, you would have to show that Haiti was in a similar position. That God had chosen one nation or group, and the Haitians and their sin was posing a threat. That would make perfect sense, because after all, this same line of reasoning has traditionally held America up as practically the new "Israel", whom God is specially working with, and our own sins are bringing "judgment" on us too, just like Israel. So America is Israel, and I guess Haiti must be Canaan, or Sodom. Both will be destroyed in judgment, except for those preaching this (who always seem spared from these things), who are the modern "faithful" prophets. See where this line of reasoning leads? It's all self-promotion, ultimately.

And now, even the NT proof-text doesn't fit, as Peter is not even talking about nations, but rather the judgment of false prophets. And most of the other prophecies refer to those who follow the Antichrist or turn out to be false Christians. So instead of nations, it's now the true believers vs false believers. After all, the Church is now the "holy nation". This shows God is no longer judging people by nation, but by individual, and spiritually.

 

Indeed. If God is still in the business of smiting OT-style, then it would no difficult thing for him to send a tsunami to wipe the Netherlands off the map.

 

Consider Pompeii.

 

That's pushing the edge of the envelope, Brother. You are doing to him exactly what you accuse him of doing to others - I think Robertson needs to back away and be quiet on national and international issues. But I won't say he is from hell....However, I will say this: I respect him as much as I respect Jesse Jackson.....preachers should stay out of politics and stick to the gospel!!

 

A couple of points by way of rejoinder: first, you can't keep the Gospel out of politics, whether you're talking about justice for the poor or protecting the unborn (to quote but two examples). Secondly, one can and sometimes should judge a tree by it's fruit: if someone is spouting heretical and dangerous (since it potentially influences the behaviour of millions of Americans with TV sets) statements every five minutes, it's right to call them on that. Although he and I don't and won't agree on everything, I don't see Tim spouting in that way, but I do see Pat doing that.

 

And you think Pat Robertson makes heretical statements every five minutes? Have you actually watched him for five minutes? The best evidence you could come up with earlier was the whole "walks like a duck" thing.

 

No one has to show that America is the new Israel or that Haiti is the new Canaan to think that God still judges nations. That is just your model, and when has God said that is the only model he would use?

The Bible speaks of disaster or destruction regarding: Sodom, Gomorrah, Babylon, Tyre, Nineveh, Egypt, and others. These were meant to be examples, as Peter says, and that others should learn from that example.

Jesus said it was meant to bring about repentence - "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you." Jesus was speaking of judgements against cities, not just individuals.

I do not know if the earthquake in Haiti was a judgement. I don’t know if God is judging America. I don’t receive revelations like that from God. But you want to put the question out of bounds, as if it were wrong to ask. And really, that is all Pat Robertson was doing, asking the question.

 

Oh gosh, where to start? Well, there's the whole Christian dominionism thing. Throw in a bit of anti-semitism (see The New World Order), some dodgy-dealings with indicted war criminal Charles Taylor and former Zairean President Mobutu (diamonds, it seems, are not just a girl's best friend but Pat's too), false claims about the power of his prayers, whether to heal people or divert hurricanes, and you get the picture.

I haven't heard Tim do any of that.

[reply to NiteShift's first post on this page]

 

NiteShift sez:

Unfortunately, some Christians still think that God is all love, chocolates and roses, and the extent of His judgment is a stern "TSK, TSK, TSK, naughty, naughty boy!"

They can't quite grasp the idea that HE is '- the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow-", and HE was quite judgmental in the past!!

Interesting, that to even suggest that God is judging, is almost considered heretical by some.

Oh well, such happens when His word is usurped by liberal ideas.

 

The whole collective guilt thing is just so darn old-fashioned

 

Close. I think the term you're straining for there is 'Old Testament'.

 

Straining was I? Only problem is that Jesus spoke of collective guilt. That would be in the New Testament.

 

Really? I guess He didn't get your memo, then, in eg: Luke 13:1-4, which is also in the New Testament.

 

Jesus was warning against the sin of self-righteousness in that case.

He affirmed elsewhere that God does indeed judge cities and nations. And also that He himself will be judging nations: "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats."

 

Well, that's one interpretation of Matt 24:31-46, I suppose; however, even if you are correct in your interpretation, I would question the wisdom of this degree of realised eschatology and seeking to usurp the role rightly ascribed solely to God.

 

The "model" God would use would be the same one He actually DID use in scripture (and it's your side always citing "same today, yesterday and forever"!) And we see, all of those nations you listed are those who came into contact with Israel or its patriarchs.
And again, they were used in the NT as examples of what would happen to false prophets and Christ rejectors., NOT people by nation anymore.

The people being urged to repent in the NT examples are the readers or people Christ was speaking to. If He was trying to get Tyre and Sodom to repent, then He would have simply sent prophets, since He says they would have repented.

This is all just memorized, straw-man jargon. No one here has said God is all chocolates and roses. There might be some like that, but not in this discussion. Yet this is what's leveled at us any time someone has some "hard doctrine" they are trying to justify.
The reason people here are opposing it, is because it smacks of self-righteousness. Like God is sparing you because of your righteousness (Even if that "righteousness" is said to be in "following" Him!) Compared to these "heathen" nations, or segments of our nation, even.
And if God is not sending judgment, then it is because of Grace, not chocolate and roses. Do not spurn His grace to others (like the workers in the vineyard). Tragedy happens to everyone, regardless of their standing with God. You (or PR) should be thankful He has neither allowed tragedy OR sent judgment to you, instead of gloating about someone else's sinfulness and how they deserved their tragedy.

 

How did we get from Luke 13:1-4 to Matthew 24:31-46?

Himmel! Is that what I've done?

 

Not one person has gloated over Haiti's misfortune.

 

Er...I think that was you:

Not you, no, but Pat is on rather thin ice.

 

No, I quoted Matthew 25:31-32 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."