Paul believed that Jesus "died for ALL"

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, Apr 7, 2005.

  1. icthus

    icthus
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    Read Acts 26:28-29

    "Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds"

    Agrippa here accuses the apostle Paul of trying to convert him to Jesus Christ. Paul answers him plainly, "I do not wish that only you would become a Christian, but ALL WHO HEAR ME THIS DAY"

    How could Paul have made this statement, if he believed that Jesus only died for the "elect"? He clearly wanted "ALL" who heared him to be saved, because he believed that Jesus died for all who heard him that day.
     
  2. whatever

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    I wish all people were elect too. But not everyone is elect.
     
  3. icthus

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    I wish all people were elect too. But not everyone is elect. </font>[/QUOTE]So, what did Paul mean here when he said that he wanted ALL WHO HEARED HIM THAT DAY to become like he was, that is, a Christian, but without the chains? You cannot get away from the teachings of Scripture, regardless what your "theology" might say
     
  4. whatever

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    So, what did Paul mean here when he said that he wanted ALL WHO HEARED HIM THAT DAY to become like he was, that is, a Christian, but without the chains? You cannot get away from the teachings of Scripture, regardless what your "theology" might say </font>[/QUOTE]He meant that he wished that all people were elect. So do I. But not everyone is elect.
     
  5. icthus

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    So, what did Paul mean here when he said that he wanted ALL WHO HEARED HIM THAT DAY to become like he was, that is, a Christian, but without the chains? You cannot get away from the teachings of Scripture, regardless what your "theology" might say </font>[/QUOTE]He meant that he wished that all people were elect. So do I. But not everyone is elect. </font>[/QUOTE]What a complete twisting of Scriptures. How do you guys find it so easy to distort the Word of God?

    Paul is talking about everyone around him becoming Christians like himself. Nothing is even hinted at here about "election". It is very shameful to add to Scripture. Is this the best response that a Calvinist can provide?
     
  6. whatever

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    What a complete twisting of Scriptures. How do you guys find it so easy to distort the Word of God?

    Paul is talking about everyone around him becoming Christians like himself. Nothing is even hinted at here about "election". It is very shameful to add to Scripture. Is this the best response that a Calvinist can provide?
    </font>[/QUOTE]You continue to prove that you have no idea what Calvinists believe. It is really sad.

    Those who are elect will eventually believe. All who believe prove that they are elect. There is no difference between "the elect" and "those who believe". They are synonyms.

    Besides, you were the one who brought up election in reference to this passage, in the opening post, so fuss at yourself if you don't like it.
     
  7. DeafPosttrib

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    I believe icthus brought this topic up, because of Calvinism teaching on 'Limited Election'. I strong disagree with it.

    Bible tells us, Christ died for whole world, not just for 'Jews' or already saved people only also whole sin of the world - 1 John 2:2.

    1 Peter 3:9 tells us, God's will that He does not want all go perish(go to hell), but want ALL come to repentance. That why God is so patience with all people of the world because of sins. God commands all people come to repent of sins, God does not want all people go to hell, because He so love all people of the world, that He does not want all people go to hell, but commanded all people come to repent. Sadly, most people go to hell, because of not repent, and do not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, that is their own choice of their decision, not God's. [​IMG]

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  8. whatever

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    Hey DP,

    I work with a fellow who does not believe. If what Jesus did for you in dying for you is exactly the same as what He did for my coworker in dying for him, then it can't be Christ's death that reconciled you to God, can it? Doesn't it have to be something besides Christ's death that reconciled you to God? If it was Christ's death that reconciled you to God then it must have also reconciled my unbelieving coworker to God as well. Right?

    Rom 5:10 "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life."

    Paul says that all who were reconciled to God by Christ's death will also be saved by Christ's life. So do you believe that every single person will be saved by Christ's life?
     
  9. bjonson

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    How did Peter word it?

    "The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off - for all whom the Lord our God will call."

    Acts 2:39.
     
  10. Wes Outwest

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    So, what did Paul mean here when he said that he wanted ALL WHO HEARED HIM THAT DAY to become like he was, that is, a Christian, but without the chains? You cannot get away from the teachings of Scripture, regardless what your "theology" might say </font>[/QUOTE]He meant that he wished that all people were elect. So do I. But not everyone is elect. </font>[/QUOTE]Not all who call themselves Christian Are.

    Paul could not have been wishing for Election! Don't you believe Paul would have known that election happened before the foundation of the world? How then could Paul have been wishing for it to happen to those who would hear him "today".

    Your theology does not make sense!
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    Hey DP,

    I work with a fellow who does not believe. If what Jesus did for you in dying for you is exactly the same as what He did for my coworker in dying for him, then it can't be Christ's death that reconciled you to God, can it? Doesn't it have to be something besides Christ's death that reconciled you to God? If it was Christ's death that reconciled you to God then it must have also reconciled my unbelieving coworker to God as well. Right?

    Rom 5:10 "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life."

    Paul says that all who were reconciled to God by Christ's death will also be saved by Christ's life. So do you believe that every single person will be saved by Christ's life?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Will you never understand the truth of Atonement? It is not the relationship builder! Love and faith are.

    Atonement removed the penalty for sin. Faith in God brings everlasting life because we no longer face death for our sins. ALL the work of our salvation was finished by our most Loving God.

    Wake up whatever? Abandon the lies you've been living and come to God he is waiting for you!
     
  12. Kiffen

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    The meaning of Paul's statements are what every Christian should desire - The Salvation of all People. Both Calvin and Spurgeon warned believers in their sermons that they would be held responsible by God for those they failed to share the Gospel with.

    The subject of Election and Predestination deals with the eternal council of God that is beyond our complete understanding. I think the problem with many is they refuse to accept there is much mystery when it comes to Unconditional Election and Whosoever Will.

    John Calvin in his commentary on 2 Peter 3:9 stated.

    "So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have them all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost. But the order is to be noticed, that God is ready to receive all to repentance, so that none may perish; for in these words the way and manner of obtaining salvation is pointed out. Every one of us, therefore, who is desirous of salvation, must learn to enter in by this way.

    But it may be asked, If God wishes none to perish, why is it that so many do perish? To this my answer is, that no mention is here made of the hidden purpose of God, according to which the reprobate are doomed to their own ruin, but only of his will as made known to us in the gospel. For God there stretches forth his hand without a difference to all, but lays hold only of those, to lead them to himself, whom he has chosen before the foundation of the world"
     
  13. Wes Outwest

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    Kiffen,
    Can you answer why even one person would sin?

    Sure, we sin because we have a sin nature, we refuse to believe the word of God because we have a choice to do so! We do not believe as the example in 2 Peter 3:3-10 illustrates that God even exists, because all the warnings of his wrath have not occured and look it's been 2000 years and nothing really catastrophic has happened to the world. sure there are "isolated" incidents, like major earthquakes, forest fires, tsunami's, etc. but nothing cataclysmic that shakes the whole world. So why fear God, he must be sleeping or out tending other worlds.

    It seems to be the addage "while the cats away, the mouse will play". We humans simply do not fear God enough to know and understand that He is well beyond our capability to comprehend let alone control.

    God does not want us to perish, that is why He atoned for the sin of the world who's penalty we could not escape. He made it so simple for us that all we can do is have faith in him. He's already done the rest of the work for our salvation, and our eternal life.

    All through the scriptures we are told to believe, believe, believe, believe, believe. Those who don't will not be saved!
     
  14. whatever

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    It's a good thing for me that your vote doesn't count. I believe that Christ died for my sins according to the Scriptures; that He was buried; that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures; that He was seen of many witnesses; that He ascended into Heaven; and that He will return to judge the world. I wish all would believe that, but many will not. Why do I believe that while many will not?
     
  15. whatever

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    Let me get this right. You're saying that Paul lied in Rom. 5:10. Is that what you're saying?
     
  16. icthus

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    Hey DP,

    I work with a fellow who does not believe. If what Jesus did for you in dying for you is exactly the same as what He did for my coworker in dying for him, then it can't be Christ's death that reconciled you to God, can it? Doesn't it have to be something besides Christ's death that reconciled you to God? If it was Christ's death that reconciled you to God then it must have also reconciled my unbelieving coworker to God as well. Right?

    Rom 5:10 "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life."

    Paul says that all who were reconciled to God by Christ's death will also be saved by Christ's life. So do you believe that every single person will be saved by Christ's life?
    </font>[/QUOTE]"So do you believe that every single person will be saved by Christ's life?"

    YES But, you have to believe first that what Jesus Christ has done on the cross, was for you

    When the jailer asked Paul that question: "what must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30). Paul did not have to think about whether this person was elect or not, he simply said to him: "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and they house" (verse 31).

    "Believing" is the key to baing "born-again"

    Jesus Himself tells us: "he that believeth and is baptised shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16)

    People are not lost eternally because God has not made it possible for them to be saved. But, as Scripture says; "because they received not the love of the truth, in order that they may be saved. And, for this cause, God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned, who believe not the truth, but hath pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12)

    They have the truth about Jesus, but, rarther than humbly accept God's provision of eternal life, then reject this, and rather continue their life of "pleasure". Because of their wilful rejection, God will send them a strong delusion to encourage their belief if their lies.
     
  17. SendMe

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    I don't believe that this is speaking of the fact that Christ died for all. Though I do not believe in unlimited atonement, I believe that this scripture is taken out of context. Paul might as well said that he wished that all were birds that sang on the powerline, if your principle was the same is this case, then there wouldn't be a spare powerline in all the world!

    The Bible also says that God is not willing that any should perish, is this a fact or is this stating one's desire? Well, as we can see from scripture, many shall indeed perish, so does this make God's word a false account? I think not. It is stating the will of God, or the desire of God. He sent His son that the world might be saved, but the world isn't saved, only a few.

    I am not Arminian, nor would I consider myself a five point calvinist. In all truth, I am still trying to figure out where I belong on the Calvin scale. I believe that there are elect, those whom God has chosen. I believe that there is irrisitable grace, total depravity... though I don't believe in limited atonement.

    Hmmm.
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    Let me get this right. You're saying that Paul lied in Rom. 5:10. Is that what you're saying? </font>[/QUOTE]NO, I am not saying that! You are eluding, or insinuating that I am. Big difference!

    Your interpretation is one caused by literalistic approach to scripture, and as a literalist, you will not understand the scriptures as God would have you understand them. You are inspecting brushstrokes, and not seeing the whole picture.
     
  19. icthus

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    I don't believe that this is speaking of the fact that Christ died for all. Though I do not believe in unlimited atonement, I believe that this scripture is taken out of context. Paul might as well said that he wished that all were birds that sang on the powerline, if your principle was the same is this case, then there wouldn't be a spare powerline in all the world!

    The Bible also says that God is not willing that any should perish, is this a fact or is this stating one's desire? Well, as we can see from scripture, many shall indeed perish, so does this make God's word a false account? I think not. It is stating the will of God, or the desire of God. He sent His son that the world might be saved, but the world isn't saved, only a few.

    I am not Arminian, nor would I consider myself a five point calvinist. In all truth, I am still trying to figure out where I belong on the Calvin scale. I believe that there are elect, those whom God has chosen. I believe that there is irrisitable grace, total depravity... though I don't believe in limited atonement.

    Hmmm.
    </font>[/QUOTE]When you sort yourself out, do come back
     
  20. whetstone

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    this whole thread is pointless. Paul didn't know who was elect, so why was it wrong to wish that all in the room would be saved? I have the same wish. It has nothing to do with God's election.
     

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