Paul was saved before he met Christ?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, Jan 21, 2016.

  1. steaver

    steaver
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    BrotherJoseph said:
    If the word "saved" always means the same thing and there is only one aspect to being saved, no phases, how then did Paul declare separate, distinct, different times in history of when he was saved?

    So let me get this straight. You believe Paul was saved several times?

    In your pov, Paul himself was saved, even before his encounter with Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus, even while having a heart filled with hatred for Christians, even while rounding them up to be put to death, even while hating Jesus, and Paul still would have went to heaven if he died in this state?
     
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  2. steaver

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    Anyone care to explain how Paul possessed eternal life while in his heart and mind he hated Jesus and His followers, and would have still gone to heaven if he had died in this condition?
     
  3. InTheLight

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    I'll take a shot at it using the Calvinist's favorite phrase. "It's a mystery."

    Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo using Tapatalk.
     
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  4. TCassidy

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    Not a mystery at all. Just another lie from steaver. What else is new?
     
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  5. InTheLight

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    I'll tell you what would be new. That would be any Calvinist actually engaging Steaver on this issue.

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  6. tyndale1946

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    Okay I will bite and I agree with Brother Joe!... Let Brother Steaver chew on this... According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world... I have only one question... Was Saul/Paul included in the him?... Brother Glen

    Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

    1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

    1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
     
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  7. InTheLight

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    You're not giving an answer. You're changing the question.

    Question was: Did God love Saul when he was an unregenerate persecutor of Christians? If Saul were to die in this state, would be have gone to Heaven?



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  8. BrotherJoseph

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    I see you can't comprehend my post you quoted. I do not believe Paul was born again until the road at Damascus. Also, it would have been impossible for him to have died in an unregenerated state because Jesus said "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me". In other words, all of the elect at one point in their live experience the inward call and divine quickening by the Holy Ghost, thus becoming regenerated. What I was attempting to explain to you was that salvation occurs in stages, not all at one time instantaneous as you believe. It is called the "ordo salutis" doctrine of salvation.

    The ETERNAL PHASE is God's plan and choice from eternity to save His elect from sin. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time.

    The LEGAL PHASE is God's work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

    The VITAL PHASE is God's application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ's death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives.

    The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation. We hear the gospel, and we believe it. This is how we learn what Jesus did for us 2,000 years ago. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. We want to know more of what we can do to please Him, and we gratefully cherish all His promises, which give us comfort and peace now in this time world in our experience.

    The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future.

    For anyone interested, below is my full post that Brother Steaver was referring to and took out of context and thereby shows his ignorance of failing to grasp my post. I gave him scripture to prove the various stages of salvation I afore mentioned.

    "Here is proof of the phases of salvation. Paul said he was saved before the world began, "9 Who hath saved us (past tense), and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,", but he also taught he was saved when Jesus came into the world, "15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." (1 Timothy 1:15), but he also said he was saved when he was regenerated, "5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5), but he also also declared people would be saved when they take heed and continued in doctrine, "16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." (1 Timothy 4:6). This is being saved in time, and is the 'saving" Cornelius experienced when he believed Peter's doctrines taught in the Bible. The Bible makes a distinction between being saved eternally (eternal life) and being saved in time (conversion). Scripture very clearly says the gospel brings "life and immortality to light" (2 Timothy 1:10), but brother Steaver would have us believe the "gospel brings life and immortality" and leave out the "to light" part, big difference don't you think? Who am I to believe you are the Bible? Finally, Paul says he would be saved sometime in the future after he believed, "11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed." (Romans 13:11) This is when we get our new bodies. Now brother Steaver, I have walked you through all the phases of salvation, given scripture to support each phase, why then do you say they are men's opinions? If the word "saved" always means the same thing and there is only one aspect to being saved, no phases, how then did Paul declare separate, distinct, different times in history of when he was saved?"
     
  9. BrotherJoseph

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    Saul could not have died in this state because Jesus regenerates in time all His elect sometime before death, this is what he meant by "all that the Father giveth me shall come to me". I think it is a safe bet to say nobody here that you would label a "Calvinist" would take the position there are some elect who die unregenerated and go to heaven. That is an impossibility. You are arguing against a straw man argument.
     
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  10. Jerome

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    You can't say Paul was actually reconciled to God until he was implanted into Jesus Christ by faith. Faith is the instrumental cause of reconciliation to God.
     
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  11. TCassidy

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    There is no issue. His op is so nonsensical it does not merit discussion.

    His foundational thesis was "how then did Paul declare separate, distinct, different times in history of when he was saved?"

    Simple. He didn't! Duh!
     
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  12. tyndale1946

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    I agree and according to I Corinthians 15... Paul was harder on himself then the Lord was on Paul... IMHO!... Isn't that also true of us?... Brother Glen

    Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

    15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

    15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
     
  13. BrotherJoseph

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    Hi Brother Jerome,

    Reconciliation occurred for the elect 2,000 years ago and the cause is His death not our faith. "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled" (Romans 5:10)This verse clearly states reconciliation occurred "when we were enemies", therefore this would also apply to all the elect even before they are born again. The cause is indicated by the word "by" which states "by the death of his Son", it does not state "by faith we were reconciled'. That the cause of the reconciliation is Christ's death alone and occurred 2,000 years ago is unarguably seen here, "20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. "21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:" (Colossians 1:20-22). Again, the cause of the reconciliation is said to be via "though (HIS) death) and it says "hath he reconciled" past tense. It also says He "made peace", how? "Through the blood of his cross". The death of Christ actually accomplished reconciliation, it did not merely make it possible, this is one of the many reasons why the atonement must be limited.

    For anyone interested I suggest reading this interesting writing by Samuel Richardson, one of the original signers of the London Baptist Confession of Fatih titled "Justification by Christ Alone" written in 1647. I found it to be quite the blessing http://www.mountzionpbc.org/Index/index08.htm
     
    #13 BrotherJoseph, Jan 23, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2016
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  14. Jerome

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    Certainly, the reconciliation, justification, and adoption of believers, are infallibly secured by the gracious purpose of God, and merit of Jesus Christ. But none can be said to be actually reconciled, justified, or adopted, until they are really implanted into Jesus Christ by faith; and so by virtue of this their union with him, have these fundamental benefits actually conveyed unto them. Scripture attributes all these benefits to faith as the instrumental cause of them (Rom. 3:25, Rom 5:1ff Gal. 3:26) and gives such representation of the state of the elect before faith, as is altogether inconsistent with an actual right in them (Eph. 2:1ff).
     
  15. steaver

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    That would be Brother Joseph's foundational thesis and is what I was looking to debate. I see you disagree with him, but he is a fellow Calvinist. So are Calvinsts divided on this ? And you shouldn't be condescending with him brother TC, with the "Duh" comment. Be Christlike!
     
  16. TCassidy

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    No, it's not. Your inability to understand his thesis is no excuse for lying about what he said or what he believes.

    Reconciliation does NOT equal salvation.
    Justification does NOT equal salvation.
    Adoption does NOT equal salvation.

    The fact that you can't understand that is proof that any discussion with you is entirely without merit.
     
    #16 TCassidy, Jan 23, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2016
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  17. tyndale1946

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    No I'm not!... I am posting biblical truths and you are posting speculation... What if?... What if never happened so it is a moot question... What if Adam and Eve never ate of the forbidden fruit?... What if Satan wasn't in the Garden of Eden?... ect, ect, ect... Really?... Brother Glen
     
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  18. Revmitchell

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    What ITL was saying is you posted scripture but gave no explanation of what point that scripture makes in relationship to the op.
     
  19. steaver

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    You do understand I quoted him word for word. How is that lying? lol. You quoted him also and declared his statement false!

    Here is YOUR quote quoting Brother Joseph....

    "His foundational thesis was "how then did Paul declare separate, distinct, different times in history of when he was saved?"
    Simple. He didn't! Duh!"
     
  20. steaver

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    So in your pov a person can be born-again and still have a heart of hatred towards God's Christ Jesus and Christians?
     

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