Pauls conversion serves as an pattern to those who shall believe ! -

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, May 13, 2011.

  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    1 tim 1:

    12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;


    13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

    14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

    15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

    16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

    The word pattern is the greek word:

    hypotypōsis

    an outline, sketch, brief and summary exposition

    2) an example, pattern

    a) for an example of those who should hereafter believe


    Basically, God has Paul's conversion on record as an example of how He saves sinners, even from their unbelief, because unbelief in nothing more than ignorance of which all the elect are by nature, before new birth:

    eph 4:

    18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    These are traits and symptoms of all mankind in relation to the True God..

    Yes, Paul was like that even as a devout jew..and so are all who belong to the church of God to which Christ came to seek and to save...all may not be as religious as Paul was, but all are as blind, without understanding, and ignorant..

    But God shows us by Paul, how He saves sinners..

    There are things we learn from Paul's example, that are applicable to each child of Grace who shall believe on Him [ Jesus Christ] unto everlasting salvation..or life everlasting..

    Let us look at gal 1:


    15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

    16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

    What is said here by Paul and about his conversion, can equally be said about all believers in Christ, though of course all are not apostles, yet all are equally of the same body with the same head, Jesus Christ..

    All believers to be are as Paul was :

    who separated me from my mother's womb

    Yes, all believers in Christ, true believers that is, were separated by God from their mothers womb..

    The word separated means:

    to mark off from others by boundaries, to limit, to separate

    in a good sense: to appoint, set apart for some purpose

    Yes, all who are called according to Gods purpose rom 8:28 are even from the womb, protected and guarded by a providence of God, and a Angel because they are heirs of salvation see heb 1:14..

    Notice the definition says, to mark off from others, thats because, even they are just as sinful as others, they have been chosen for a holy purpose, a purpose of mercy, vessel of mercy apart from others..

    God says mal 3:17

    And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

    They are spared their due destruction for their evil ways by nature..because they are God's heritage..

    also look at :

    Mich 7:18

    Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

    Paul as well as all the members of Jesus Christ body belong to the remnant of His Heritage, the election of grace..

    So thats one point that all believers, past, present, and future have in common with Paul, that from their mothers womb they had been separated by God..and under a all encompassing protective providence that ensures they will be alive to be Called by His Grace..
     
  2. savedbymercy

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    As we continue to look at

    gal 1:


    15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

    16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:


    Not only are all the church members like Paul separated from their Mothers womb, but secondly, they are called by His [ God's ] Grace.

    This call is actually regeneration, or being born again, and its effectual in the conversion of the one called, it calls them out of darkness into His Marvelous light..

    1 pet 2:

    9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

    This call is effectual, it actually delivers one from the power of darkness and translates into the Kingdom of God's dear Son col 1:

    13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    This call by Grace, is the effectual working of God's Power eph 3:


    7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

    8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

    This grace is given to all to be saints, no matter if a apostle or new convert on the day of Pentecost, all partake of the effectual regenerating call by the Sovereign Grace of God, just like Paul did..for His call was an example of all the church of God.. ​
     
  3. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    Jesus christ is revealed in them ! -



    Another feature that is manifested in Paul's conversion that serves as a pattern for all those who should hereafter believe unto life everlasting, is that after having been separated from their Mothers womb, and the called by God's grace [ new birth] then Jesus Christ is revealed in them, a saving knowledge and experiential knowledge is given them of Jesus Christ..

    Gal 1:

    15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

    16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

    Jesus Christ actually comes into the child of God by His Spirit and lives within Him or Her activating a life of Faith..

    Gal 2:20

    20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Jesus Christ is not merely revealed to the chosen vessel of mercy, but in them, that they may live a life long life of Faith..
     
  4. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    Results in Christian witness and service !



    As we continue to look at Paul's example of How God converts His wretched unbelieving people [ we are by nature] we see this pattern.

    That God separates us from our Mothers womb, calls us by His grace, and reveals His Son in us ..Now why ? Lets look back at Paul:

    gal 1:

    15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

    16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

    For Paul it was to preach Jesus Christ among the gentiles, but all believers are not made to be preachers in Gods church, however we are all made to show forth the praises of Him who called us out of darkness into Marvelous light..

    1 pet 2:

    9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that [ to this purpose or end] ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

    Peter writes in another place 1 pet 3:15

    But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

    BTW, the above imperative is not a ok to debate truth with unbelievers who have questions of unbelief and gendering strife, for believers are to avoid those see [ 2 Tim 2:23 ; Titus 3:9]

    But to those whom we perceive that God may be sending to us with a sincere desire to know the Truth of the gospel hope we have, to such be ready to give an answer to..

    For this purpose were we created anew, to walk in works before ordained of God..eph 2:

    10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
     
  5. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    Conversion by the Will of God !



    Scripture shows us How Pauls conversion was by the Sovereign will of God, and so it is for every member of the same body that paul was a member of..

    So observe :

    2 cor 1:1

    Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:


    eph 1:1

    Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:


    col 1:1

    Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,


    2 tim 11:

    Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,


    It is by the Same Sovereign will that every believer comes to believe in Jesus christ..


    Remeber:

    1 tim 1:16


    Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

    It could have very well read :

    2 tim 11:

    Paul, an Believer of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

    The whole Church, Christ body are believers by the will of God..
     
  6. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    obtaining Mercy ! -



    1 Tim 1:


    12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

    13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

    14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

    15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

    16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

    I obtained mercy is in the passive voice in the greek, Paul was the recipient of an action, that action was God showing Him mercy.

    Paul here credits His being saved and converted and placed into the ministry, to nothing but the Mercy Jesus Christ had on Him, He declares, His being delivered from unbelief and ignorance is due to mercy shown Him by God through Christ Jesus.

    Now remember Paul also wrote this about God's Mercy Rom 9:

    15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    God's mercy is Sovereign, its not shown to a man because God sees he is willing, but purely out of His own Sovereign determination to show mercy to whom He will have mercy.

    Now, back to Paul, for His conversion is given as an example of God saving sinners as you and i according to 1 Tim 1:

    15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

    16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

    So Paul's conversion on Damascus road is very instructive, by it,it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    In this witness of scripture, we see how God's mercy changes a hardened and ignorant unbeliever, into a repentant, believer in Christ, thats because, at this crucial time in Paul's life He received Mercy, He obtained Mercy. Mercy was not offered to Him, or made available for Him to accept or reject, but Christ simply had mercy on Him, and gave Him both Faith and repentance instantaneously, right then and there. [ Of course this may not happen to all of Gods elect in the same way, but it will happen].

    This is what it means to obtain mercy, or what it means for God to have mercy upon one rom 9:16 and what it means when it says that He may have mercy upon all Rom 11:

    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    Just like He did paul !

    So to obtain mercy, of which all who do are passive, its to experience a conversion from sin, ignorance and unbelief, to serving the True and Living God.

    Just five minutes before Paul's conversion, his obtaining mercy, it would have been blasphemy to Paul to acknowledge Jesus Christ, whom he was actively persecuting, Lord !

    Notice Paul after obtaining mercy Acts 9:


    1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

    2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

    3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

    4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

    5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

    6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

    So when we obtain mercy for salvation and conversion, it brings with it a right conception of who Jesus Christ is, LORD, and when we obtain mercy, we obtain precious Faith along with it 2 pet 1:

    Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

    A Saviour gives Faith ! Paul says that the grace of the Lord was abundant towards Him with both Faith and Love 1 Tim 1:

    13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

    14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

    If one does not have Faith and Love towards Jesus Christ, then ye have not obtained salvation mercy !

    Thats what it is to save sinners says Paul, to be saved from unbelief and ignorance, and to be turned to serving the True God and Jesus Christ
     
  7. billwald

    billwald
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    If I must fall off a horse like St Paul I have a problem . . . .
     
  8. annsni

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    I certainly don't! I can do that weekly without even trying! ;) But I try not to because it's a long fall off of Whirl. Heck, last time I fell off of him, I landed on my feet and got a concussion - just from the impact! So needless to say, I try to stay on but if it's for God, I guess I'll do it.
     
  9. Winman

    Winman
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    Incorrect. There is a big difference with someone being an apostle, and someone being an ordinary believer. In Acts 1 we see there were 120 disciples, but only 12 apostles.

    Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
    21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
    22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
    23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
    24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
    25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
    26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

    You are correct that all believers are believers by the will of God, but that does not mean that God compels someone to be a believer. It means that no one could be a believer unless God had willed it. That may sound the same, but it is not.

    It is God's will that all believe and be saved. God provided the revelation that enables any man to believe. No man could possibly believe on Jesus unless he has heard of him (Rom 10:14).

    So, if God had not willed that Jesus die for us, and if God had not willed to reveal this to us, could you possibly believe in Jesus? NO.

    That is what it means. You, nor I, nor anyone else could believe in Jesus unless the Father willed it. But that does not mean all will obey God's will and trust in Jesus.
     
  10. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    win:

    No, correct. An apostle is an believer. All believers were created unto good works, paul includes himself Eph 2:

    10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Now Pauls good work may have been an apostle, another a teacher, or the gift of helps,but all came about it the same way, by the Sovereign will of God and had to become believers first to accomplish the work God hath before ordained, that they should walk in them..
     
  11. savedbymercy

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    believing a result of God showing mercy ! -



    Paul says I did it ignorantly and in unbelief, and for this cause, I obtained Mercy !

    Believing is the fruit and the effects of God showing one mercy, God withholding mercy, as He has the right to do according to rom 9:


    15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. [God withholding mercy is positive hardening]

    Now, God withholding mercy is the primary cause of unbelief rom 11:


    30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy [ like paul did 1 tim 1:16] through their unbelief:

    31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

    Obtaining Mercy is God granting them to believe as He did Paul.

    I know this will fly over most peoples head, but its the Truth any how..
     
  12. chadman

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    SavedbyMercy -So...is this like a mini-Calvinistic type lesson you have given here? It feels like you are trying to say Paul was saved by predestination? Just put it in black and white please. Thanks.
     
  13. Doubting Thomas

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    Psst--Hey Chadman, don't interrupt the monologue. :cool:
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    Saved by the Will of God as Paul was !



    2 Tim 1:

    1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

    The Apostles are representatives and examples of all believers, for they as us were sinners saved by grace 1 Tim 1:

    15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

    This is the Testimony of an Apostle, one who is a sinner needing to have been saved by grace.

    Now, his salvation was linked with his apostleship, that is, he was saved in order to carry out a saving purpose for the good of the church of Christ, and that is common with all believers, though we all are not called to be apostles 1 Cor 12:

    28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

    29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

    The answer is obviously No, all are not apostles, however just as the apostles, God has set the lesser gifted believers into the body of Christ too 1 Cor 12:

    28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

    Now that word set is the greek word tithēmi which means:

    to set, put, place

    a) to place or lay

    b) to put down, lay down

    1) to bend down

    2) to lay off or aside, to wear or carry no longer

    3) to lay by, lay aside money

    c) to set on (serve) something to eat or drink

    d) to set forth, something to be explained by discourse

    2) to make

    a) to make (or set) for one's self or for one's use

    3) to set, fix establish

    a) to set forth

    b) to establish, ordain


    It means to appoint as used here 2 Tim 1:


    11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

    These various appointments of God into the service of the body, whether apostles or helps etc all the appoints are due to the Will of God 1 Cor 12:

    11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

    As Paul's apostleship unto the body was by the Will of God 2 Tim 1:1, likewise is the case with the lesser gifted believers, whom also are placed into their places of service in the body by the will of God, and knowing this, their believing in Christ is also for that purpose to fulfill their appointment in the body of Christ. So all have been appointed by the will of God to believe as Paul was. In fact, Paul says His believing was an example of how God saves sinners 1 Tim 1:

    15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

    16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
     
  15. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    We see that Paul was made an Apostle or Believer, for He could not be made a apostle without being a believer, hence by the Will of God 2 Tim 1:

    1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

    1 Cor 1:

    1Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

    2 Cor 1:

    1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

    Eph 1:1

    1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

    Col 1:

    1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

    The word for will here is the greek word thelēma:

    what one wishes or has determined shall be donea) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ

    b) of what God wishes to be done by us

    1) commands, precepts

    2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure


    Now this same will of God is what causes our deliverance from this evil world Gal 1:

    4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

    Thats the purpose of God behind Jesus giving Himself for our [The elect] sins...

    The elect are delivered from their sins and this evil world system not by water baptism, faith, repentance, or anything man does, but its according to the Will of God..
     
  16. Dr. Walter

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    Don't confuse the internal conditions of the heart (faith and repentance) with external actions (baptism, church membership). 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches explicitly that election is unto salvation and this salvation is THROUGH sanctification (setting apart by) the Spirit AND belief of the truth - the truth of the gospel (v. 14) whereby the elect are effectually called.

    There is no such thing as "salvation' of an elect apart from repentance and faith in the gospel just as there is no such thing as faith apart from repentance.

    The effectual call of God is inseparable from the empowering of the gospel by the Holy Spirit (1 Thes. 1:4-5). God has elected the means as well as the people for salvation and you are simply trying to divide one from the other when they are indivisible.

    The effectual call in part is the empowerment of the gospel (2 Cor. 4:6) like unto the effectual call in Genesis 1:3. The gospel becomes the effectual command of God (Rom. 10:17 "rhema") that gives light and life or a new heart unto the elect.

    God has chosen the gospel as much as He has chosen the elect in regard to salvation (Rom. 1:17; 1 Cor. 1:17-18).
     
  17. chadman

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    I don't think this poster replies back to folks good Dr. I tried, but it was futile.
     
  18. savedbymercy

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    Made a Minister or Servant ! Eph 3:7



    Following the example of Paul, whereby it was written that His conversion experience was to be an example of those who should hereafter believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to life everlasting 1 Tim 1:16

    16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern[example] to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

    Paul was made a minister or a servant according to the gift of the grace of God given unto him.

    Eph 3:7

    Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

    The greek word for servant is diakonos and means:

    one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister
    a) the servant of a king[/B]

    b) a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use

    c) a waiter, one who serves food and drink

    The word basically means a servant, its used that way Rom 16:1

    1I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

    Now she was made a servant to the church in the same manner as paul was,according to the gift of the Grace of God.

    We do not exactly know what her service was, but it was certain she was appointed by God to one, as perhaps she was given to be a helps as in 1 Cor 12:28

    28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

    or perhaps She was given to be one that was gifted to give or to showeth mercy as in Rom 12:8

    Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

    All of these less prominent roles of service unto the church, other than the apostleship, were still servants or minsters unto the body of Christ, and God would work so effectually in providing each servant to His Body as He did with the apostles.

    With that in mind, As Paul, all for whom Christ died are made, the word is ginomai :

    to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

    to become, be made

    In other words, being made or brought into existence by God's Grace, the effectual working of His Power, each member of Christ body was brought into existence to serve the Head and each other.

    This was accomplished by Christ death,and by dying for them He makes them servants or ministers by the Gift of the Grace of God.

    Paul again writing to believers, those Christ died for writes this Eph 4:7

    But unto every one of us [The Chosen see Eph 1:4] is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

    The same as in Eph 3:7

    Also the same Gift and Grace is spoken of in Rom 5:15

    But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded [is given or furnished] unto many.

    So being made a servant , a minister of Christ, is a effect of Christ having given Himself on ones behalf, Just like His death and power of His Grace made Paul a minister, so it shall all the body of Christ He layed down His Life for.
     
    #18 savedbymercy, Jun 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2011

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