PB's monergism vs. Reformed's monergism.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, Apr 10, 2013.

  1. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    The Reformed view of monergism has God enabling man to respond to the gospel through what is called "gospel regeneration". Now, God makes a man able to respond, yet man has a duty to answer that call. Now, if man has to respond to God's calling, then that would be at best, "pseudo-monergism":

    http://www.theopedia.com/Monergism


    So here it shows God givng man the abiliity to hear, see, come, respond, etc., yet there's the duty of man to do these things prior to be saved.

    Now, let's take a look at the PB's model of synergism:


    Now, I can't post a link to this, because I used this very link about a year or so back in the ORB History forum, and the link I used then, no longer works. It's on page 71 of the ORB History forum.

    As far as I know, none of the Reformed, or at least a vast majority, would not hold to this belief. The PB's view on monergism is truly the only truly monergistic view out there.


    Now, let's not turn this into a bash the PB's thread, okay? I was just showing everyone that only the PB's have a truly monergistic view.
     
  2. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,892
    Likes Received:
    0
    In reality, I think the Primitive Baptists are the only consistent Calvinists. And I do admire consistency.
     
    #2 Thomas Helwys, Apr 10, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2013
  3. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    Actually Brother, they wouldn't fall under the unmbrella known as Calvinism/DoG/Reformed, etc. No die-in-the-wool Calvinist/Reformed/DoG would hold to their belief regarding the OP, best that I know.....but I could be wrong. I tend to lean closer to the PB's in regards to this belief than the Reformed side of this debate.


    Here's some verses to chew on, okay:

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


    You see, the gospel is more than just a message being given, but God's power to save lost souls. One can hear the gospel at any given time, and except they be enlightened to see, hear, understand, etc, they're still lost. Now, I am in the FW camp, but a lost man must be given eyes to see with, ears to hear with, drawn, to have the ability to come to Him, etc. This is something that God can do without any help whatsoever from a preacher. What I mean is that there's a poster on here, AliveinChrist, who has spoken with missionaries who have evidenced tribe members who were cast out of their tribes because they wouldn't worship their "god', because they knew there was God, and He sent messengers to fully show them. But they knew there was God, and not the "god" their tribal members worshipped. God did this outside of the gospel message.

    And then there's this passage as well:

    Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


    There's no mentioning of a preacher here. Now, I am not saying that billions upon billions have been saved this way, but a vast majority have. God will make sure that His creation will hear His life giving message.
     
    #3 convicted1, Apr 10, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2013
  4. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,659
    Likes Received:
    225
    A fallacious premise. It assumes a man's natural cognitive and sensory abilities give him an advantage in hearing and responding to the Gospel.
     
  5. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    How so? God has given mankind a brain, and with that brain, the ability to reason, think, make decisions, etc. Now in regards to salvation, one must first be drawn by the Father, but still, one has been given the ability to reason, think, make decisions, etc.
     
  6. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,659
    Likes Received:
    225
    No flesh will glory in His sight. He did not give corruptible flesh the power to respond to, nor maintain a spiritual covenant. Add to that the corruption that relegates the flesh at enmity and free from God's law, and one is double-bound.
     
    #6 Aaron, Apr 10, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2013
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,080
    Likes Received:
    49
    My view in this is that God has provided for the salvation of all liek infants/mentally hindered etc thru the Cross, and that He has soveregnly chosen to freely elect them unto Eternal life...

    Which camp would i be in here?
     
  8. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exactly Convicted. Many forget or ignore the fact that we the creature are created in the image of our maker.
     
  9. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    Having your cake and eating it too? :)
     
  10. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,659
    Likes Received:
    225
    But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

    I think y'all must have missed it.
     
  11. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK, how can man be responsible for rejecting the gospel if he is UNABLE to respond positively to it?

    That would be comparable to a person preaching the gospel in Chinese to a person who cannot speak or understand Chinese. How can that person be responsible for not responding to the gospel when he is not ABLE to understand it?

    Does this view seem just to you, or does it seem rather unjust?
     
  12. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."

    1) God, because of His attributes of love and justice, will save infants and the feeble-minded because they are unable to trust in Christ.

    2) God enables fallen individuals to seek God and trust in Christ via irresistible grace.

    Therefore the individual who is not enabled is fully responsible for choosing the only path he is able to choose, and God is not the author of those sinful choices.

    Hangs together quite nicely? ;)
     
  13. salzer mtn

    salzer mtn
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,581
    Likes Received:
    26
    Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness,after his image; and called his name Seth.
     
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    That's not true.

    God uses means to do what he does in this world.

    God can knock the ball out of the park by himself, but he chooses to give skill and strength to the baseball player.

    There is nothing inconsistent about that.

    I think most Calvinists believe in Gospel regeneration- the idea that God regenerates the sinner by utilizing the means of the Gospel something like Jesus made Lazarus alive by his spoken word. Jesus could have made Lazarus alive without speaking but he chose to use his voice to bring Lazarus' resurrection to pass.

    God has chosen to regenerate sinners by the Gospel.
     
  15. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    No, it is full of holes.

    Hole #1- You have God saving babies that I thought you believed were perfectly innocent. If they are not sinners, they do not need to be saved.

    Hole #2- You have no Bible to support the idea that God, based on his justice and love, saves babies. Once again, if babies are sinners then justice demands punishment. If babies are not sinners then justice is not an issue because there is nothing to "save" them from.

    Hole #3- Your system does not allow God to save people without their aid and participation. Yet, you have God electing to save (like Calvinists do) vast numbers of people (babies and feeble-minded) without their choice in the matter. Congratulations, you are one step closer to the truth. Now if we could get you to be consistent...
     
  16. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    No criticisms here, however, I honestly think the imago dei is much richer in meaning than your suggestion here.
     
  17. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,659
    Likes Received:
    225
    Always and anon, the objection is "Why doth He yet find fault?"

    And, for the thousandth time, Paul has already responded, "Who do you think you are, puny human, to judge God?"
     
  18. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    And you are right.

    Even after the flood God still considered man in his image and called for the death penalty against any who would kill human beings BECAUSE man is still in the image of God.
     
  19. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Sarcasim

    I put forward the premises which are full of holes to illustrate they are a joke.

    1) I believe babies are condemned at conception because they are conceived in iniquity. Thus they were made sinners, even thought they have not done anything good or bad.

    2) That is right, no where in scripture is a loop-hole for those who die without God placing them in Christ based on faith in the truth. Justice does not demand babies who have been made sinner, but have not sinned, to be punished. God's characteristic of holiness requires they remain separated from God because they are in an unholy sinful state and have not been washed by the blood of Jesus.

    3) It is not "my system" but God's system which requires God to place individuals whose faith He has credited as righteousness in Christ to be made holy and blameless without blemish.

    My view is consistent with all scripture.
     
  20. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    You're emotionally opposed to it, not logically or exegetically.

    You just emotionally NEED it not to be true.

    That does not mean it is not true.

    BTW, I don't believe dead babies perish either, but I actually have REASONS for it not just emotions.

    Right. The only solution to the problem is that God can save monergistically, without the needful participation of the sinner.

    But you don't get to ignore the PLAIN biblical fact that all human beings are born sinners just because it does not suit you and you don't LIKE it.

    It is your system that says that faith does not save but choice. You don't actually believe people are saved through faith. You believe they are saved through CHOICE.

    Faith is not something you choose. You beleive what you believe because you HAVE BEEN persuaded it is true. You are passive in the matter. you don't CHOOSE to trust in gravity. Your faith in gravity came totally apart from any act of volition. Gravity persuaded you it was trustworthy- you had no choice BUT to believe in it.

    This is true of all kinds of faith. Faith is not a choice you make.
     

Share This Page

Loading...