1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Peace and Social Responsibility

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by JesusandGeorge04, Nov 1, 2004.

  1. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    Beware of feeding the trolls.
     
  2. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2003
    Messages:
    5,122
    Likes Received:
    19
    You do realize the track record of President Bush on this particular topic, don't you?
     
  3. billwald

    billwald New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    2
    Right wing panders to greed. Left wing panders to sloth. Libertarianism is the middle way. &lt;G&gt;

    Second, the USofA since WW2 has had the best economic conditions for the working class since Adam got kicked out of the Garden. There is no excuse for being poor in the USofA except a mental or physical disability. 90% of poverty in the USofA is the result of bad decisions.

    If a person can't "make it" here and now (USofA) he would fail any place, any age.

    Third, "poverty" is more a mental state than a lack of cash money. If a person doesn't think that he is poor, he isn't.
     
  4. JesusandGeorge04

    JesusandGeorge04 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, it's not that hard to do so, but it gets complex; with the restructuring of the tax system, giving has become a liability (esp. in the case of estate taxes).

    Here's a good one:

    http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=4&page=451
    http://philanthropy.com/free/articles/v12/i01/01000101.htm

    Actually, I have accused ALL of us for abandoning the needy... the percentage of our waelth we give to charity barely tops 2%, and even less for those with more, depending upon the relationship of income to wealth (the poor actually support each other to a considerable degree.)

    I don't do enough myself... and to that I wonder what's the best route when no one is doing anything, even believers? Well, that's where taxation comes into play.
     
  5. JesusandGeorge04

    JesusandGeorge04 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Errr... where did you get this idea? And I must ask: how are bad decisions made? Are you suggesting that being poor is an inborn condition and/or a moral failing, but it has nothing to do with socio-economic conditions?

    What responsibilities are you trying to get out of?

    Unless you are starving, then thinking becomes difficult...
     
  6. williemakeit

    williemakeit New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    Messages:
    393
    Likes Received:
    0
    Errr... where did you get this idea? And I must ask: how are bad decisions made? Are you suggesting that being poor is an inborn condition and/or a moral failing, but it has nothing to do with socio-economic conditions?

    What responsibilities are you trying to get out of?

    Unless you are starving, then thinking becomes difficult...
    </font>[/QUOTE]My informative years were spent in poverty (public housing, going to bed hungry, etc.). Didn't know how poor we really were until I looked back on it years later. Do not know where you came from, or where you are now, but I am more than willing to help you if you need any assistance. I am somewhat of an expert on the poor if you want to ask any questions.
     
  7. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    Proof, please.

    In fact, it is just the opposite. It is those on the right who are more inclined to give to the needy through church and charity and benevolent associations.

    What tripe! Free public education is hardly a bad socio-economic condition. In fact, if you study hard enough and make good grades, you can get college scholarships.

    I sure hope the race card isn't going to be thrown in next...but before it is, I would like to point out people like Condy Rice, Colin Powell, Justice Clarence Thomas, and others who were not born with silver spoons or advantages, but achieved their goals because they got off their duffs and didn't expect handouts. This is America. Everyone here has an equal chance to make it or sit on their rearends and expect society to feed their sorry lazy selves.
     
  8. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2001
    Messages:
    9,687
    Likes Received:
    1
    Unfortunately, we often don't have enough information to make good decisions. And sometimes, things outside of our control reward or punish us arbitrarily with outcomes we had no way of anticipating. And not all of us start out in the same place on the ladder.

    Being poor isn't a moral failing, it's just a circumstance.
     
  9. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 23, 2002
    Messages:
    22,050
    Likes Received:
    1,857
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Why shut down debate?

    What is so threatening about loving thy neighbor and taking care of the least of us?
    </font>[/QUOTE]You are not about that. You are about socialism and using government power to destroy the hard work of thrifty people so that you can spend to gain power by using government money to buy votes. The poor are just pawns in your socialistic struggle. No socialistic government has ever raised the standard of living for the poor. We don't care to follow into the ruinous footsteps of England, once ruling the world but now just another pagan nation.
     
  10. North Carolina Tentmaker

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,355
    Likes Received:
    1
    JesusandGeorge04:

    Let me share one other insight with you. Years ago I was working with a Missionary in Haiti. One morning he caught me giving food and money away on the street. What do you think your doing? he said. Until they come to grips with their real problem and turn to Christ you have not helped them. As long as they think some rich American (trust me all Americans are rich in Haiti) will come along and feed them they will never face the true root of their problems, hearts that have rejected Jesus Christ.

    As I spent more time on the island of Hispaniola I realized that what he said was true. I could never feed all of the hungry there, and if I tried to I would be ignoring the real problem. To feed someone and pat them on the back as they proceed on their way to hell is not real compassion.

    And by the way your comment
    is really true in Haiti and other nations of the world, but I know you can't be referring to the United States. We have a problem with obesity among our poor, something that seems really strange to the rest of the world.
     
  11. North Carolina Tentmaker

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,355
    Likes Received:
    1
    Somehow my earlier post never made it onto the board. I asked George if he was in favor of using federal tax dollars to support religious charities that are making a real difference in people's lives.

    Here is a link to Effective Compassion: Seven Principles from a Century Ago
    by Marvin Olasky

    Http://www.acton.org/publicat/books/transformwelfare/olasky.html

    Marvis says
    I take real offense at JesusandGeorge04's statement that,
    All of us have not abandoned the needy. Many people are giving more than they can afford and making a real difference. The problem is that the U.S. Government is doing too much and doing it poorly.
     
  12. JesusandGeorge04

    JesusandGeorge04 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gave it to Ken.

    Proof?

    That all depends on how rich your community is; as local schools are supported largely on local property taxes, there are wide gaps between crumbling inner-city schools and rich suburban ones... thanks to Reagan's policies!

    http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/19/powell.race/

    http://talkleft.com/new_archives/001475.html

    Well, there goes Powell and Rice for ya. As for Thomas, I need not say anything more about that hater of civil-rights.

    Racism is alive and well in America, LE; job discrimination, classroom discrimination, housing discrimination... it permeates every socio-economic sphere.

    No, we don't all have equal chance; opportunities are not availiable to everyone. All I advocate is for everyone to have the chance to succeed, and without being healthy, educated, trained, and protected against discrimination... people cannot succeed.

    Methinks you need to read Matt 25:31-46 before you tell someone else off.
     
  13. JesusandGeorge04

    JesusandGeorge04 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    You mistaken me for a conservative who uses wedge issues like abortion and gay marriage to lure the unwary into bad voting decisions. I'm not a socialist, by the way.

    To... make sure the poor have enough opportunities to survive and succeed? How are they pawns when they are being empowered? Conservatives taking away their rights and opportunities at the same time filling their head full of 'culture war' garbage seems to me to be making them into pawns.

    Actually, Northern Europe has done fairly well...

    Ummm... why is ruling the world a good thing? Maybe they found humility along with reason... Not ungodly principles, mind you.
     
  14. JesusandGeorge04

    JesusandGeorge04 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    And yet, these obese people are malnurished; just because someone has ample amounts of processed foods full of sugar and saturated fats does not mean they aren't starving for vitamins, protien, etc...

    I agree that handouts doesn't address the cause; that's a matter of fairer relations between us and other nations.
     
  15. JesusandGeorge04

    JesusandGeorge04 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Too much WHERE? Medicaid and Welfare have been gutted, community programs erased. There's not 'too much' of any sort of social work going on. As for faith-based charities, I have problems with pushing faith on others; although spiritual healing is needed, we cannot be so arrogant as to assume what one in need is supposed to have in terms of deific experience... that is for God to decide, not us holding the carrot of help. Also, there needs to be significant restucturing of the way we view money, property, consumption, work, etc... without that, those at the bottom will continue to be defined by the more affluent to the bottom of the pile.
     
  16. billwald

    billwald New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    2
    &gt;Errr... where did you get this idea?

    By living 64 years and observing.

    &gt;And I must ask: how are bad decisions made?

    How? By not clearly analyzing one's options?

    Buying toys on credit. Buying junk food. Smoking factory made ciggy butts. "Keeping up with the Joneses." Buying a bigger house than one can afford. Buying a new car. Getting pregnant. Getting married . . . or not getting married. Gambling. Buying booze.


    &gt;Are you suggesting that being poor is an inborn &gt;condition

    No, except in the case of some disabilities.

    &gt;or a moral failing,

    Yes, generally a moral failing.

    &gt;but it has nothing to do with socio-economic &gt;conditions?

    Very little to do with economic conditions. Anyone with normal smarts can get an education and a job. Disabled people can get jobs.

    &gt;What responsibilities are you trying to get out of?

    Say again? None that I know of. I've shot my wad, run my race and finished mid pack.
     
  17. JesusandGeorge04

    JesusandGeorge04 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    And what would you say to those who have lived for the same period of time and think differently?

    What if you have none, or only poor options and no flexability?

    Much of this is the fault of American companies which not only market heavily using the best in psychological tactics and legal restraints, but also the cultural presuppositions of progress, success, etc. which lead many through social pressure to maintaining a lifestyle which is necessary for advancement in jobs, getting proper housing, etc. I would read The Working Poor about these sorts of systamic problems.

    Less so that our failing to take care of those in need.

    Where are you getting these ideas, considering the wealth of evidence against your opinion?
     
  18. billwald

    billwald New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    2
    04

    You also an elder person? Where did you do your observing? I lived in NY/NJ till '62 and the rest in Seattle.


    Everything is always someone else' fault, right?

    No options? you gots to be kidding. What is your personal difficulty? You doing OK? You dissatisfied with your life? Details?
     
  19. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    billwald, methinks JesusandGeorge is a college student.
     
  20. JesusandGeorge04

    JesusandGeorge04 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am a teacher in his thirties who comes from a familiy of teachers, and has done many studies on the socio-economic effects on development.

    Now don't go into false aternatives... lol

    I think people are the combination of a large number of environmental influences upon a unique soul with it's own quirks. Although we are 'agents' on a spiritual level, the temporal one is MUCH more complicated, and must be examined in full before we make too hasty a suggestion of blame.
     
Loading...