Penance at Liberty University?

I'm going to challenge you to reply to my original post on this matter. I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

As an alumnus who worked with the review and student affairs process as part of my responsibilities your take on this simply wrong.

Liberty isn't for everyone. You don't have to agree with what they do. But you sure don't get to call them out when you are either unable or unwilling to become more acquainted with their system.

To my knowledge plenty of other schools have disciplinary codes like this...why not question all of them? I think you're being silly.

 

What is the big deal about the money? I have never had much, and do not give it a lot of thought. I have always been provided for by the Lord. That has nothing to do with my question. How did Liberty misrepresent discipline from Matthew 18, also considering the fact they are not a local church.

If the above are their rules, then they should be obeyed. There are plenty of colleges that do not have those rules, just as their is quite a variety of local churches.

 

FTR, while I was at LU parking tickets were more worrisome than fines for reps.

 

While I might quibble with the list, and the idea of monetary fines for listening to the wrong music seems kinda silly since I was broke as a Bible college student and seminarian, every school has some sort of penalty in place for behavioral infractions (alcohol consumption, tobacco usage, etc) and have every right to do so. Even secular schools have codes of conduct.

When you sign on to go to a school, you usually agree to abide by the behavioral conduct. So if you willingly sign and willingly disobey, you've already committed the sin of bearing false witness. I chose not to go to schools because I didn't like their code. For instance, I knew I couldn't sign a code saying I'd always use the KJV only, to use a real example.

So no, this isn't penance. No way.

 

You are technically correct. If Liberty uses Scripture as its basis, then Scripture should be followed. In your opinion it is not. Had you been the one who founded and funded the start of the institution, you could enforce your beliefs.

 

I think you are misunderstanding some aspects about the Liberty Way.

First, I think you confuse punishment and reconciliation. I know Liberty has tried to foster true repentance to include a former roommate of mine when at Liberty. Like with my kids, if you do wrong there may be an external punishment but that does not mean I will fail to shepherd my child's heart. It is not an either/or but sometimes a both/and when it comes to pastoral shepherding and external punishment. For instance, even though David repented, he still lost his son. One is not in direct opposition with the other.

Secondly, I think you confuse legal steps and protections for absolute standards. Just like churches, if Liberty did not outline a formal disciplinary structure they would open the school up to more liability and would fail to legally protect the University in cases where someone has egregiously disobeyed the rules. Legal statutes have upheld schools who perform discipline because it violates their Christian belief, but they have ruled against organizations who do not outline such provisions. Does this mean Liberty cannot grant grace? I know of many situations where Liberty has granted grace when the student committed acts that would otherwise have resulted in dismissal. I have even seen Liberty pay a 3rd party because the students caused financial loss to an outside entity. However, to enact any disciplinary measure you need to clearly outline it in a governing document or else you open yourself up for legal problems. Even in your own tardy student scenario, the laws allowed you to fail the student. Had they not, then your actions would not have been grace.

Thirdly, you confuse the lack of punishment with the institution of Grace. Grace often comes in the form of punishment. God says he chastens us because of His love. He says you love your children therefore you will discipline them. When my children lie, there is a punishment and sometimes that punishment comes even if I believe the child is truly repentant. Yet, if someone chooses not to punish, as mentioned above and in your illustration, that is not disallowed but merely the exception.

Finally, you mentioned Matthew 18 saying that the church was not in existence. I disagree as Jesus used eklesia in that context. Only dispensationalists, with a hermenuetical agenda not found in the Bible, would want to say the church did not exist when Jesus clearly refers to it in this situation. However, I do agree with you that we should try to work out and reconcile with one another. Yet, that does not mean I cannot punish my children, the school's governing body cannot have laws and rule, that a state convention cannot have rules and laws, etc... Again, I believe you confuse formalized punishment with pastoral reconciliation. In the Bible, God sometimes did both as they are not in opposition to the other.

 

Which is about as silly a statement as the op.

 

Yes, some people are richer and can afford the punishment whereas, when I attended, I was very poor and had to work extra hard to pay for my education. Why be critical? Everyone who attends Liberty agrees to these rules. The ultimate end result for continued disobedience is dismissal from the school. The problem you cite is not a problem, you seem to indicate it is unjust because some can afford it more than others. That is not unjust, it is a fact of life.

Exactly, that is my point.

To compare the Bible where economics in the Old Testament and New were completely different than economics in today's world is not appropriate. Back then, one of your greatest commodities was your livestock and your land. A tithe in the Old would have included the livestock and produce as well as any land. Thus, when God asks for a sacrifice, while he gave provisions for the poor, a great portion of the sacrifice was economical. Much of the retribution laws in the Old Testament were economical.

And that is a problem in what way? I grew up poor. When I went to Liberty, my family had no way to help me get through college and the biggest objection my mother had to my attending Liberty was that we could not afford it. I obeyed the laws; I never had to pay a dime in punishments because I knew the rules and I obeyed the rules. That is called being responsible. If a student attends Liberty knowing the laws and chooses to be irresponsible, whether rich or poor, they will have to pay their dues.

Whether rich or poor in the Old Testament, if you disobeyed some of the Levitical laws, you still had to pay retribution and make a sacrifice. While some of the provisions in the law did allow for those who were poor, some did not. The easy way around paying the fine is obeying the rules. If you can't obey the rules you have two options, not attend or pay the fine.

I chose to attend, and I chose to obey. It wasn't hard, even to this Hispanic who loves to dance! Oh, I dance today and I dance with joy, but when I was at Liberty I agreed to obey their rules. These rules are not applied to all people everywhere, only to those who voluntarily attend their school and voluntarily agree to this formal disciplinary action. No one is forced to attend!

I attended and I obeyed. As a result, this is such a moot discussion and is moot for those who obey.

 

No, I do not think he is. Regardless of how he feels about LU discipline, he cannot, I cannot, you cannot change it. If you want to change the rules, start your own seminary.

 

GB,

I did not like everything at Liberty, but I voluntarily placed myself into that University understanding the rules. If you don't like the rules, they would be the first to tell you that you probably should not attend the school.

Our nation, is a different system than Liberty. You are governed by U.S. law because you are within their jurisdiction and in the case of most of us, we were born here. In the latter case, you did not voluntarily come here. In Liberty's case, it is voluntary.

Yes, I would have a problem with the laws at Liberty if they did any of the following:

1. If Liberty made their laws a litmus for all Christians not just standards for Liberty students. Jerry Falwell often said that these were merely laws while at Liberty and good Christians could, let's say, dance. You just couldn't while at Liberty.

2. If the rules were not well publicize. When I was considering Liberty, I was given a copy of the Liberty Way and read through the booklet before I began my first semester. Students at Liberty are given full disclosure of what is expected before beginning their first class. If they are not, then they are the exception and not the rule (and they either enrolled at the last minute or they didn't care enough to read).

3. If Liberty was a government entity and the laws were mandatory not voluntary. I volunteered to go to the school; I volunteered to submit to their rules. One-hundred percent of the students at Liberty attend there do so as a voluntary arrangement and the arrangement can be terminated by the student at any time.

4. They would deem you righteous or unrighteous by the system they have in place. The payment is a formative disciplinary process not a shepherding/pastoral process. While they engage in the latter, they do allow for the former.

You are communicating that you do not like Liberty's rules, thus you do not have to attend Liberty. You are free to agree or disagree with the rules. Yet, making a voluntary system a matter of Biblical violations and "penance" is completely irrational. At my place of work, I have a manual much longer than the Liberty Way. Again, while there are things in both I dislike, I am free to adhere or free to leave. Neither are Biblical or unBiblical, but they are merely rules.

 

Government 101-We all have a say in our government by our vote and other means. LU is a private institution. As far as my involvement in evangelism, I spend most of a day a week on outreach. Your comparisons are invalid. We all are part of how our country is run. However, for example, you have no say so in how my church is run, nor do I have a say so in yours. LU is not a public school, and being a private institution, if they want to require everyone to wear purple shirts and yellow pants, then you either do it or go somewhere else.

 

If going to the bathroom is not held to the standard of scripture then how are future pastors to know how to lead their churches in going to the bathroom? Quite frankly ceramic bowls are unscriptural. We must dig a hole in the ground as they did in Biblical times.

 

Have you stopped beating your wife?

 

And Liberty is not claiming these are Biblical rules, you are the only one wishing to place these rules and penalties to that degree. On the contrary, some of these rules Dr. Jerry Falwell admitted good Christians can do and still not sin.

Your belief is that Christian organizations/institutions should only have rules and punishments contained in the Bible. My family, a Christian institution, has rules and punishments not contained in the Bible. I do not elevate them to the level of the Bible, but they exist. I know many mission agencies which does not allow Christians to date while on the mission field. This is not Biblical but understandable. Your position that a Christian Institution is wrong when they allow for other rules is both foolish and a narrow interpretation of the Bible. When at Liberty, unless they ask you to do something contrary to the Bible, you should obey. When in my home, unless I ask you to do something contrary to the Bible, you should obey. If a missionary is with a mission board, unless they ask you to do something contrary to the Bible, you should obey.

Liberty believes Matthew 18 is for the Church. While they do take on the first levels of Matthew 18, they cannot excommunicate someone. As a result, they are limited. Their system is not unBiblical but is wise in certain areas. Their system is not Biblical, but they are not claiming it to be Biblical and it is not unBiblical.

Even an Elder has qualifications that not every member is expected to uphold. Even the family can have qualifications that are not in the Bible, according to the wise dictates of the parents. Even a school can have rules they believe are wise. There is nothing wrong with these rules so long as Liberty understands they are not Biblical... and, having been a part of the Liberty family for 14 years, I believe they do.