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Pensecola Christian Collage

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by DeclareHim, Jun 7, 2004.

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  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    The example of the local church meeting and deciding (what we would classify as complete congregational polity rather than a business owned and run by the Hortons) is throughout the Acts/Epistles.

    Granted, the Apostles, as missionaries, had to "start thing off" in some places, planting churches and establishing leaders.

    But then? The church voted and selected officers. The church voted and selected missionaries. The church heard the report and held the missionaries accountable.

    What else IS there besides congregational rule?
     
    #61 Dr. Bob, Jul 6, 2004
  2. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    The basic difference in the polities I listed is where does the pastor come from/how is he selected.</font>
    • Is it a matter of the vote of the congregation?</font>
    • Must he be a member of or authorized by the local Presbytery?</font>
    • Is he appointed by the local bishop/District Superintendent?</font>
    Such matter are important when your church is over 120 years old.
     
    #62 Squire Robertsson, Jul 6, 2004
  3. Pastor J

    Pastor J New Member

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    Dr. Bob and Squire,

    If congregational rule is through Acts and the Epistles, I would be curious to see some of these passages. In Acts, the congregation was told to select 7 men to be deacons. I wouldn't say that this is congregational rule. I think we see more clearly in Scripture a Pastor led church. The pastor is the elder, shepher, bishop. All of these titles describe, as you already know, different aspects of being a Pastor. I do believe the congregation should have a part in deciding who their pastor is, but that does not mean that the Campus church can't do it another way. Scripture does not state that the congregation has to vote in by 3/4 majority the next pastor.
     
    #63 Pastor J, Jul 10, 2004
  4. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Pastor J, you beg my last question. How is a (senior) pastor selected? It all well and good for the Campus Church to have its pastor selected by (to use an historic term) the laird of the manor. In some ways, the prcedure is close to the way chaplins would appointed at an OxBridge college. But, that doesn't mean we have to consider it a full fledged b(B)aptist assembly.

    As to where you see congregational rule in the NT, the principle is bound in the Greek word ekklesia. Much as many of us see immersion (dunk) every time we see the word baptism or one of its forms. For a treatment of the word, I commend Overby's Meaning and Use of Ekklesia in the New Testament. Further discussion of that point is better moved to the Denom or FB Forum.
     
    #64 Squire Robertsson, Jul 10, 2004
  5. Pastor J

    Pastor J New Member

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    I do not disagree that I do not like the way the Campus Church is run. However, they claim to be an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church.
    I also understand that the original greek has greater meaning than the KJV or any other translation. Being a called out assembly does not mean though that they are led by the assembly, when Scripture, in my opinion, clearly teaches a Pastor led congregation. Though the campus church does not have the same polity as my church or your church, it does not mean that they are not a local Independent Baptist Church.
     
    #65 Pastor J, Jul 10, 2004
  6. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    I think you misperceive my reference. By the time of the New Testament, ekklesia had meanings beyond its simple root meaning of a called out assembly. Its primary meaning in that day referred to the "town hall" meetings of the Greek city states. A secondary meaning referred to groups who organized themselves for a specific purpose, in modern English we'd call them lodges or clubs (Moose, Elks, Odd Fellows, ect.). At no time did the word refer to a monarch or monarchy.

    It simply works out to this until the pastor of the Campus Church ceases to be appointed by the laird of the manor, the magistrate as it were, it will continue to be under a cloud. If on the other hand Dr. Horton steps up to the responsiblity and takes on the senior pastorate of the Campus Church, then matters will adjust accordingly themselves. Yes, I know that would open up a whole different set of problems but life is life sometimes.

    As for their not having the same polity, as the old Scot said,
    If they don't have the same basic polity, then they are not a "local Independent Baptist Church." They may be many things but not that. And we IBC folks may cover a rainbow of practice, but there is a red end and a blue end.
     
    #66 Squire Robertsson, Jul 11, 2004
  7. aefting

    aefting New Member

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    There are Baptist churches with elder rule, pastor rule, and congregational rule. Are those the only polity options allowed?

    What I wonder about the Campus Church is (1) does it have deacons (and how are they appointed), (2) do they support missionaries, (3) do they excercise church discipline, (4) do they accept membership from outside the PCC family, (5) do they perform the two ordiances of baptism and the Lord's Supper, (6) how is the money taken up for the offering used, (7) does it have a budget independent from the college?

    Andy
     
    #67 aefting, Jul 11, 2004
  8. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    All of the options you listed are valid and are not a matter of debate. They are topics open for discussion maybe but not debate. And they are most certainly not worthy in and of themselves of being the basis of breaks of fellowship.

    PCC and the Campus Church however do present a valid question for debate. I have alluded to it before but let me be more explicit about my "laird of the manor" example.

    As late as the early 19th century, certain landowners in Scotland were responsible for the maintenace of the minister of the parish kirk. This gave the the local "dominie"/parson conflict of interests. My point in the case of the Campus Church, Dr. Horton is the laird of the manor.
     
    #68 Squire Robertsson, Jul 12, 2004
  9. Pastor J

    Pastor J New Member

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    Aefting,
    1. They do not have the office of a deacon. They do have men who serve in that regard.
    2. Yes, they support many missionaries, church planters, etc.
    3. Yes, they do excercise church discipline
    4. They do accept members from any Independent Baptist Church, Salvation, or Statement of Faith.
    5. Yes, they perform both ordinances of the church.
    6. All monies taken in the offering on Sunday go towards the budget of the Campus Church. Wednesday offerings are sometimes designated to support a specific missionary, camp, etc.
    7. The Campus Church's budget is "technically" independent from the College. I say technically because they have their own budget, but all financial issues do still go back to the college.

    Squire,
    I don't disagree with you that Dr. Horton oversees the financial aspects of the entire ministry. He is also responsible for hiring the Pastor. Though I do agree that this is not a good situation, I also do not see a conflict with Scripture.
     
    #69 Pastor J, Jul 12, 2004
  10. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    There'd be no question of conflict if Dr. Horton would step up to the plate and be the pastor he is in fact. Then the question would be is PCC's Board of Trustees acting as CC's deacons? Oh, the problems that develop when you find yourself not only on polity's leading edge but on its bleeding edge.
     
    #70 Squire Robertsson, Jul 12, 2004
  11. Pastor J

    Pastor J New Member

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    Squire,

    The board of Trustees does not get involved, to my understanding, with the affairs of the Campus Church. I would agree that if they did, there would be a huge issue there. As far as Dr. Horton stepping up to be a Pastor. He does not meet the qualifications to be a Pastor. I would have a greater problem with him calling himself the SR. Pastor.
     
    #71 Pastor J, Jul 12, 2004
  12. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    At the moment, I assume they wouldn't but if Dr. Horton were to step into the pastors slot then....
    As for my usage of the term senior pastor, I just used it to differentiate between him and other's he might/would have on his pastoral staff. Some use the title many/most don't. Machts nicht zu mir.
    When you're neither fish nor fowl, you lay yourself open for questions.
    Not being in the PCC sector of the galaxy, I don't understand how Dr. Horton can be in a senior public leadership position and not meet the basic qualifications for a pastor. If you are in a position to clarify his lack of qualifications please do so. Be advised, I consider a demurral on your part to be a valid answer to my question.
     
    #72 Squire Robertsson, Jul 12, 2004
  13. Pastor J

    Pastor J New Member

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    One of the qualifications is "apt to teach". He has openly stated that he is not a teacher, he is an administrator.
     
    #73 Pastor J, Jul 12, 2004
  14. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    I just wanted to check if it was one of the moral quals. If it is only the "apt to teach" qualification, considering the circumstances, he is IMHO not allowing for a looser interpertation. I'll leave it at that and bid you Godspeed.
     
    #74 Squire Robertsson, Jul 12, 2004
  15. Pastor J

    Pastor J New Member

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    Thanks for the discussion.
     
    #75 Pastor J, Jul 12, 2004
  16. Fundamentalist1611

    Fundamentalist1611 New Member

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    It's funny how certain foilks here criticize pensacola for not having a local church but yet maranatha is not a ministry of a local independent church. I don't agree with a college without a local church, it's not scriptural but maranatha does the same thing and since it's a soft weak kneed pansy compromising any bible goes business/institution kjb critizers ignore it.
     
    #76 Fundamentalist1611, Jul 16, 2004
  17. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    The difference is, Fund1611, MBBC make no pretensions about being more than it is. It is not a matter of PCC not having a local church. It does, the Campus Church. To me, this is question at hand (albeit in a nutshell):
    I personally have no problems with the "I" and the "F". But I do have problems with the "B" as noted in my previous posts in this thread.

    Further, ad hominum arguments concerning a schools stand on versions are out of order in this forum.
     
    #77 Squire Robertsson, Jul 17, 2004
  18. superdave

    superdave New Member

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    Fund1611,
    You obviously do not have any real accurate data about Maranatha as a ministry. The real issue regarding pensacola is that rather than encourage their students to get involved in true independent local Baptist church bodies, they run one of their own, that is a ministry of the school, not the other way round.

    Maranatha, (the one in Wisconsin), encourages, and requires their students to attend one of the many local churches in the area. There are no churches in the area that have the resources to do what MBBC is doing as a ministry serving many local churches. The goal of the school is to prepare their students for ministry. Hundreds of students every week are working in ministries of local Baptist Churches every weekend. It might be good to get your facts in order, and than come up with a consistent position before throwing such poorly thought out statements about a ministry.

    I will not even answer the ignorant, incorrect characterization of MBBC when it comes to the versions issue, but suffice it to say that even if it were as you say it is, I would applaud them for it. You are ignoring major problems regarding the structure of Pensacola and their "Church" simply because they hold to the same idol that you apparently do. I am not a kjb critic, and have never really met one, but I have a real problem with the onlyist [snipped], and will continue to refer to it as such, especially outside the versions forum where this discussion is not welcome

    [ July 18, 2004, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]
     
    #78 superdave, Jul 17, 2004
  19. joGOPsh

    joGOPsh New Member

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    you know I just got back from camp CoBeAc in Prudenville Michigan and Dr. Dave Jaspers was one of the speakers for the special leadership camp and I personally believe that MBBC is on the right track he is IFB person and will not compromise. PCC has compromised in many areas such as music and "hate" for fellow Christians.
    PCC will not allow my pastor to go on campus even though my pastor is IFB. the camp director of camp CoBeAc is not allowed to recruit for counselors on PCC for crying out loud. PCC is a propaganda college for their VISCIOUS KJV only stance.
     
    #79 joGOPsh, Jul 17, 2004
  20. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    PCC will not allow Camp CoBeAc to recruit? PRAISE GOD.

    While some great young men and women may be duped into attending PCC, its doctrinal and practical teaching is NOT something I would want promoted in my church or camp.
     
    #80 Dr. Bob, Jul 18, 2004
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