Pentecostal Baptists.

I seem to recall Beverly Hills Baptist Church in Dallas, TX being disfellowshipped from the local assosiation. The pastor there was Dr. Howard Conatser. I read about it in "Bite Your Tounge" which was written by a member there. I think that Lulu Roman of Hee-Hew fame was saved at that church. This was back when a lot of Baptists were looking for "something more" in church. Almost all the people that I know who left the Baptist church for a charismatic churchs in our area are back at the Baptist church.

Did a quick Google search. BBBC is now called Church of the King. According to their websight they have about 450 members. Far less that when they were Baptist.</font>[/QUOTE]I looked in a book called "the Centruy of The Holy spirit,' written by Vinson Synan, who is a Pentecostal historian.
on page 187 in this book it gives the account of the Beverly Hills Baptist Church in Dallas Texas.
The Beverly Hills baptist Church was in fact rejected by the Dallas Baptist Association and the Texas State Baptist Convention but remained in the National Southern Baptist Convention.
The opposition to the Beverly Hills Baptist Church wa led by W. A. Criswell and at the height of the controversy Criswells own daughter recieved the Pentecostal experience and spoke in tongues. (There is a reference noted in the book by Synan about Criswells daughter in a book entitled "Like A Mighty River" by David Manuel) The church left the SBC after the death of the Pastor.
The SBC has to my knowledge never had a resolution( binding or non binding) on speaking in tongues. Ther are isolated cases on a local associational level.
In 1998 The Georgia Baptist tried to get a resolution passed to disfellowship "charismatic practices" but the resolution did not pass.
On a national Level I don't think the SBC is prepared to tackle this issue. I don't think such a resolution would pass on a national level simply because the SBC would loose lots of members if this happened. Even if it passed it would be a non binding resolution and could only be forced upon employees of the SBC. I personally think that employees of the Sbc are tired of having to sign statements to keep their jobs.

 

My brother and sister in law attend a Southern Baptist affiliated church which is "on the verge" of becoming pentecostal/charismatic. This church is far and away the largest church in their local association. Why this is, I cannot say, I've never been around this kind of service myself, but there seems to be something there to entice folks. Itching ears perhaps.?

Jeff.

 

There was survey done by a large baptist church of why some of its past members had left their church and went to a Charismatic church. 100% of them said the same thing. We are tired of dead, dull and boring liturgical services that leaves you empty. We were tired of music that leaves you empty and does not touch your soul.

You can argue all you want to about this but more and more churches are losing people to these churches and this is why a lot of Baptist churches are moving this direction. They are tired of losing so many members.

I don't understand why anyone would complain because people want some emotion. David danced before the Ark of the covenant when it came into Jerusalem. The people went wild waving palm branches and lifting up their voices in praise and worship when Jesus rode into Jerusalem and when the so-called religious leaders made a protest just like a bunch of Baptists do they were told by Jesus that if these are silent the rocks would cry out. People don't want rocks to cry out in their place.

Psalms more than once said MAKE A JOYFUL NOISE UNTO THE LORD. It says NOISE. Sitting quiet and pious is not making a joyful noise.

When Israel marched around Jerichos wall on the 7th day they lifted up their voices with a loud shout and blew on the trumpets and the walls came down. When the enemy was attacking Israel the King Jehoshaphat put the choir out front and those who shouted and praised the Lord and the enemy was defeated.

Paul and Silas was in the jail and they began to worship and sing. I don't think they were sitting there singing quietly. Their worship caused an Earthquake to happen. Also Paul said that when the Lord returns he will come with the Voice of the ARchangel which will give a shout.
The Book of Revelation says the people of all tongues and nations who were on the sea of Glass sounded like the voices of many waters. Well listen to the oceans and the seas. They are not quiet most of the time. There is a roar and this is exactly what the Bible is saying.

Emotionalism. I think so. HEaven is not going to be a quiet place where everyone is floating on
some ethereal cloud playing a harp.

Years back everyone bought into that all they could expect was dead and boring services. Now they have learned to read the Bible themselves and they know that this kind of worship is acceptable to God and they want their souls fed.
You know the religious rulers were arguing among themselves over how emotional everyone was about Jesus and they missed it. They missed their blessing.

 

Since you have never been to that kind of service, how do you know that the ears are being itched.
I challenge you to go and see for yourself.
Maybe you will see for yourself what is enticing folks.
I would love to hear your response when you go. However I will not be on a computer for the next 3 weeks.

[ December 31, 2002, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: atestring ]

 

Having heard the joyful sound, I find I get emotional.

Ps 89:13-18
13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.
14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.
18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
KJV

Ps 119:97
97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
KJV

Ps 119:165-172
165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
166 LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.
167 My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.
168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.
169 Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.
170 Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word.
171 My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes.
172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
KJV

The word ought to control the emotions, and not the emotions controlling the life.

*****
Pentecostalism and Baptists

[ December 31, 2002, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Bob Krajcik ]

 

Thanks for recognizing the article. The person hosting that Online is in Brazil. Don't hold it against him, I haven't been in contact with him for a few years now, but I have known him since the early 1980s

Another person, a missionary living in Honduras, Central America sent me printed copies of that tract.

The tracts was very relevant for situations the missionaries were faced with.

I have found some have had a few problems with what is said there, but generally, not always, when it was explained what was meant had less trouble with what was said.

If you are of a mind, and want to comment on what you disagree with, I would try to answer as time allows. Be sure, it is not for me, but is left for another to give us understanding of these things.

http://www.geocities.com/wbtbrazil/embrace.html

 

1) Mohler has never been the president of the SBC.

2) If you know anything about Mohler, you would know that you are badly mistaken regarding what he would or would not praise. You must have mistaken him for someone else. I am not sure he has ever been on TBN. I would have to see proof to know otherwise.

I was present in a service with Mohler and Piper once and Piper was raising his hands during the worship. It was an akward moment for Mohler.

3) When a person continually paints with such broad strokes, their words become rubbish.

 

My bad. He was the President of Southern Baptist Seminary. Not sure if he still is. Certainly he is a spokesman for the Convention being on Larry King and Donahue.

Well, the caption at the bottom of the screen said Al Mohler, and in fact was saying that he should adopt their methods of youth ministry.

But I could be mistaken. Maybe I'll send an email and ask him.

[ December 31, 2002, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

He is still president of SBTS and he is definitely a spokesman for many in the SBC.

He could have been on TBN. I may have just missed it or not heard about it.

As far as adopting their methods, I would have to see the interview. Mohler has been critical of many of the modern church methods (many of which I would defend). I love Mohler and have spent a lot of personal time with him. We simply disagree in some of these areas.

I can provide you his personal e-mail address but do not expect an answer in the near future. My wife was his personal secretary for some time and they receive multitudes of e-mails daily.

 

I just visited the SBTS website and didn't find his personal e-mail. I'll call the toll-free number and see if someone there knows if he was on TBN.

This was a couple of years ago. I think it was the PTL Club. I remember the fancy chairs and big hair.

The pic of Dr. Mohler on the SBTS site looks like the guy they were interviewing, but again, it was a long time ago.

It stuck with me because of the name I saw at the bottom of the screen.

Anyway, it was a while ago.

 

Did I mention this was a while ago?

 

I e-mailed Mohler's VP and closest friend (who happens to be my mentor) and asked him if Mohler has ever been on TBN. His response was an emphatic NO!

 

Then I stand corrected, and I thank you for that. I know it was channel 16 (TBN in my part of the country)

Maybe there's another Mohler running around. I didn't make this up.

Anyway, the charismatic worship styles are gaining ground especially in the youth ministries at the SBC churches I have been affiliated with.

 

I think we've been around and around with the Mohler & TBN question enough. Let's move on.

[ January 01, 2003, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

Well I guess I'm one of these Bapticostal worshipers. Out of a church of about 125 members that are active, there are 3 of us that have a prayer language. We have been together on a Tues. morning - afternoon after our Tues. morning Bible study and prayer meeting, and the 3 of us went into the sanctuary and went to praying in the spirit, praying for the Holy Spirit to be in our Sun. morning service. We asked the Lord to bring people to the service, to draw the lost to Jesus Christ and for Him to continually to fill us over flowing with the Holy Spirit.
After our group prays together our pastor tells us that he senses God's prescence in the building is stronger. I believe he would know this. One day he came in the sanctuary while all 3 of us were still praying in "tongues" quietly, he stood in awe in God's wonderful prescence.
He that is the (pastor) told us that he wish God's Spirit was like this during our Sunday Morning service. Believe me I'm not trying to brag but, I can't turn this praying tongues on or off at will, but I can control the volume, so that I don't bring attention to myself. Pastor Lonny told the 3 of us, not to pray out loudly in tongues in Sun. Morning Service. We all agreed this was for the good of our congregation!


[ January 01, 2003, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: Jim Ellis ]

 

...and the interpretation was?

 

hmmmmmm I wonder what the responses would have been from those who looked at charismatic Churches for a while before returning to the Baptist would have been?

In no particular order: People babbling on in "tongues" all at once with no interpretation. Various goings on such as the "slain in the spirit" and "toronto" things. "Name it, claim it, and frame it" teachings etc etc etc.

Not forgetting a lot of the songs being as shallow as the hole an ant leaves on a diamond after parachuting onto it from a height of 17.3147cm....

There is just as much a stream back from those un-Biblical churches I think. And some Baptist Churches that start moving that way here soon find their congregations disappearing...Not that the numbers game is the ultimate indication of truth.

True, the Psalms also said "Be still" a few times. Be still, and know that I am God. I play a Strat now and then, and it is pretty hard to be still when playing a screaming solo

A good read through the Psalms will show that it is not all "happy-happy clappy-clappy." The word "meditate" is even used a few times, which is another thing that is tricky to do when trying to get a few thousand beats per minute out of a Strat

Yes, Israelites marching around Jericho, Jehoshaphat putting singers in front of the army, Paul & Silas etc etc. However there were many more other trials/battles/wars etc that God brought His people through without them singing first Only some of those had songs written afterwards

Pete

 

Jim Ellis,

When you speak in tongues do you speak in a human langauge? How did you know that this was from God?

Heidi