Pentecostalism Proven wrong, By the Bible

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by MatthewHenry, Nov 29, 2005.

  1. MatthewHenry

    MatthewHenry
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    0
    The false teachings of the Pentecostal-Charismatic Movement
    (Assemblies of God, etc.)

    6a. The false doctrine that tongues speaking is for today

    Bible Answer:

    a. The Bible says tongues were a real language (Acts 2:3-11).

    b. The Bible says tongues were a sign to the unbelieving Jews (1 Cor.
    14:21-22). After Israel rejected God's sign of tongues and Jerusalem
    was destroyed in 70 A.D. and the Jews were scattered to the ends of
    the earth, the need for tongues as a sign was finished.

    c. Biblical tongues had to be used according to the teaching of the
    apostles, yet the Pentecostals and Charismatics do not submit to
    these restrictions:

    (1) Women are not allowed to speak in tongues (1 Cor. 14:34)
    (2) Tongues were to be spoken only by course (1 Cor. 14:27)
    (3) Tongues must be interpreted (1 Cor. 14:27)
    (4) There is to be no confusion (1 Cor. 14:33)
    (5) Everything is to be decent (1 Cor. 14:40)
    (6) Everything is to be orderly (1 Cor. 14:40)

    d. Tongues were not spoken by every believer even in the days of the
    apostles (1 Cor. 12:28-30).

    e. Biblical tongues were not sought after but were sovereignly given
    by God (1 Cor. 12:11).

    f. There is no instruction in the Bible about HOW to speak in
    tongues. Those who believe in tongues speaking today claim that they
    can teach people who to do it.

    g. The Bible says tongues speaking, prophesying, and words of knowing
    will pass away (1 Cor. 13:8). When the New Testament was completed,
    there was no further need for these particular gifts.

    6b.The false doctrine that healing is promised in the atonement

    Bible Answer:

    a. The Bible says that not all sicknesses are healed (2 Cor.
    12:97-10; 1 Tim. 5:23; 2 Tim. 4:20).

    b. The Bible says that the physical part of our salvation is for the
    future (Rom. 8:17-25.

    c. Peter says that Isaiah 53:5 refers to spiritual healing of the
    soul (1 Pet. 2:24-25).

    6c. The false doctrine that miracles should be sought

    Bible Answer:

    a. Jesus warned that it is not good to seek miracles (Mat. 12:39).

    b. The miracles performed by the apostles were special (2 Cor.
    12:12). Not every Christian could perform miracles.

    c. Faith does not come from miracles but from God's Word (Rom.
    10:17). Multitudes witnessed Jesus' great miracles, but most did not
    believe.

    6d. The false doctrine that the Holy Spirit baptism follows salvation

    Bible Answer:

    a. Jesus promised the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5) and this
    was fulfilled in Acts 2 for the Jews and in Acts 10:44-47 for the
    Gentiles.

    b. Since then, every believer receives the Holy Spirit when he
    believes (Eph. 1:12-14).

    c. The book of Acts is a transitional book. Not everything that
    happened then is the pattern for the rest of the church age.

    d. In the epistles, the reception of the Holy Spirit is always
    mentioned in the past tense (Rom. 8:9-10; 1 Cor. 12:13; 2 Cor.
    1:21-22; 5:5; Eph. 1:13).

    6e. The false doctrine that we should exalt the Holy Spirit

    Bible Answer:

    a. The Lord Jesus Christ foretold what role the Holy Spirit would
    have in the church age (John 16:13-15). In this passage we learn that
    the Holy Spirit does not exalt Himself and the Holy Spirit does not
    draw attention to Himself.

    b. There is no example in the N.T. of praying to the Holy Spirit. The
    Lord Jesus Christ taught us to pray to the Father, not to the Holy
    Spirit (Matt. 6:6,9; Jn. 16:23). The Apostle Paul taught us to pray
    to God the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit
    (Rom. 1:8; 7:25).

    c. There is no example in the New Testament of inviting the Holy
    Spirit to work. Neither Jesus nor the apostles did that.

    6f. The false doctrine that we should not test the Holy Spirit with the Bible

    Bible Answer:

    a. The Bible warns that there are false spirits and that the devil
    tries to deceive (2 Cor. 11:4; 1 Jn. 4:1). Therefore we must test
    everything carefully or we will be deceived.

    b. The Bible commands us to prove all things (1 Thess. 5:21).

    c. The Bible commended the Bereans because they tested everything by
    the Scriptures (Acts 17:11)

    6g. The false doctrine that the believer can be rid of his sin nature

    Bible Answer:

    a. Paul taught that the believer still has the struggle with sin
    (Rom. 7:14-21; Gal. 5:16-17).

    b. John teaches that the believer still has sin (1 John 1:8, 10).

    6h. The false doctrine that victory in the Christian life comes
    through unusual baptisms and experiences

    Bible Answer:

    a. The Bible does not exhort us to make spiritual leaps through
    unusual experiences. Rather, it exhorts us to GROW in Christ (1 Pet.
    2:1-2; 2 Pet. 3:18).

    b. The apostles wrote many epistles instructing the believers about
    how to deal with sin an spiritual problems, but they never instructed
    the believers to seek a second baptism or other such special
    experiences.

    6i. The false doctrine that visions and prophecies are for today

    Bible Answer:

    a. The Bible says the faith was completed in the days of the apostles (Jude 3).

    b. The Bible says that the Scriptures are sufficient (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

    c. The Bible says that Scripture is more sure than visions (2 Pet. 1:16-21).

    d. The Bible says that prophecies will pass away (1 Cor. 13:8).

    1. The false teaching that salvation is by grace plus works
    (Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Church of Christ, Roman
    Catholic Church)

    Bible Answer:

    a. The Bible says salvation is by grace without works and that works
    follows after salvation (Rom. 4:1-6; Eph. 2:8-10; Titus 3:4-8).

    b. The Bible says that grace and works cannot be mixed together (Rom. 11:6).

    c. Grace means a free gift. Salvation is called a gift 16 times in
    the New Testament. If salvation requires some works, then it is not a
    true gift. The gift of God is free for the sinner because Jesus
    Christ purchased it at great price with His blood and death on the
    cross.
     
  2. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG]

    Baloney!!!
     
  3. Rev. Lowery

    Rev. Lowery
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    0
    MatthewHenry

    I agree with your post 10000000000%


    Rev. Jerry D. Lowery
     
  4. Heavy Metal Calvinist

    Heavy Metal Calvinist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2005
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    WOW. This should be called the cessasionist thread. I would like to offer my some of my testimony here:

    In May of 1985, I was baptized in an SBC church. Then that church split. The pastor (or anybody in the church, for that matter) never sat me down to disciple me. Old Brother so-in-so never really taught me anything from the pulpit (15 minute sermons). This church split got real ugly and I left. The Charismatics lured me away with a promise of “something more.”

    I met a certain soon-to-be Word of Faith preacher who ran sound and lights for local Christian rock acts. He invited me in to help. My father always worked, never taking a vacation. My mom and I were always at odds, to say the least- even after my conversion. I had nothing much spiritual at home, and I surely had not been saved long enough to know that wolves wore sheep’s clothing.

    So, I fell victim to an Arminian influence that would last for years. I did not know that walking into this charismatic church would set my feet on a religious treadmill. I did not realize I was making a Galatian error (GAL 3:3).

    To make a long story short, I bounced in and out of denominations, following friends and fly-by-night “Pastor-teachers” of many denominational stripes. Who was at fault? Me? Preachers? Churches? My parents?

    I write this to highlight the fact that strong doctrinal preaching, full of those Calvinistic and Baptistic distinctives, needs to again echo in our SBC pulpits.

    The Founders Movement is nice, but we need more than a token tip of the hat to Boyce and Spurgeon. We need God-called and Holy Ghost equipped Pastors to shepherd those “lost and tossed folks,” people with the stories similar to mine. I finally ended up back in the SBC, but I have had my share of splits and watered-down preaching.

    Flash forward a few years into my adult life. My father died when I was thirty years old; that was in the year 2000. God used Dad’s death to hone and refine me. His death drove me to see life in a new way- and it pushed me to new heights. I lost my earthly father. It made me look long and hard at just who I was and what I really stood for.

    I did something that I should have done years ago: I enlisted in the Kentucky Army National Guard. Why would I put myself through that at age thirty? To be honest, I almost didn’t make it through Basic Training due to being thirty pounds over-weight and badly out of shape.
    I realize now that I did it for Dad. Dad was drafted in the 60’s and ended up with an 11E MOS (Military Occupational Specialty of Tank Crewman). He did his time in Germany in Armor. I went the other direction. I made it out with a 12B MOS, which is combat engineer (they blow stuff up- simply said).

    My wife thought I had lost my mind when I enlisted. She now says it was “my prayer closet.” She told me in an unguarded moment that she knew that Dad’s death drove me there, and his memory pushed me on to serve. I always felt it was something that I needed to do. With two sons, I knew Active duty was out of the question. So I did what I thought I could reasonably pull off at my age and station in life.

    I grew spiritually in Basic. You see, God had something there for me besides physical conditioning and Army training. I met an Army chaplain (I forget his name- I believe it was Major Moore).

    I started off my Sundays attending the Assemblies of God Pentecostal Church, but the thin emotionalism and shallow preaching wasn’t nursing a wounded heart. I needed Christ more than ever at this time- I was scared of what I had finally plunged headlong into.

    I had never heard the term “Reformed” before, but I walked 3 blocks down the street to a Church that was billed “to worship in the Reformed Tradition.”

    I am so thankful that a Sovereign God knitted my life’s circumstances together to lead me to this church. The first thing the Major did was to ask me about my walk with Christ. I explained that I had “went forward” in a Southern Baptist Church.
    He said “Oh, you are a Calvinist, then.”
    I said, “What’s that mean?”
    I am sure he sighed, and then he did what no other preacher dared do before:

    1. He discipled me- expounded the great truths of TULIP, the 5 Solas, and expounded on the rich history of why the church had a Reformation.
    2. He challenged my Arminian understanding of scripture boldly- not in pride- but for the Glory of God.
    3. He kept me stocked with solid Biblical teaching (Modern Reformation Magazine, Ligonier Ministries, etc).

    Up until this time, all I ever got was liberal, Arminian, and charismatic theology. I never had sat under a shepherd who really fed me. Saved in 1985. Finally fed in 2001. Hyperbole you say. I say it is a fact.

    At the risk of sounding self-righteous, I will dare say as a layman that the church is full of incompetent and self-absorbed “pastors” who need to lead, follow, or just get out of the way.

    I like the way John Macarthur (a personal hero of mine) says it: “love without truth is just sentimental hypocrisy.”

    People want strong doctrinal preaching- contrary to what Satan teaches through the lazy liberals in many of the very seminaries your tithes support! Demand more from your preacher factories! Many a poor Christian could use a first class education, too. Let’s help make this happen.

    This Chaplain told me about how he had enjoyed the teaching of Dr. RC Sproul; Sproul had been one of the Chaplain’s professors in seminary. This Army Chaplain wasn’t Southern Baptist, but he was a man who had a rock-solid soteriology (that term means “study of Salvation” for those who may not know).

    This man knew how we are really saved- by Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Isn’t it ironic that I had to get outside the SBC to hear about our Calvinist roots? Chew on that one, ye seminarians. I guess many of the pastoral SBC-trained “physicians” out there need to “heal themselves” by reading Romans 9:16. Hopefully God will give them eyes and ears to see and hear.

    How quickly we forget Grace....

    And all you need is Christ and his Word alone. I never spoke in any tongue or recieved any sign gift. I am content with the Lamb and his unfailing gift of love- a love which by the way doesn't pass away. This is true charisma!

    Forgive the long post....

    [ November 29, 2005, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: Heavy Metal Calvinist ]
     
  5. MatthewHenry

    MatthewHenry
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    0
    and just so the Pentecostals don't think I'm picking on them:


    12. The false teaching that God chooses who will be saved and that
    only those who are chosen can be saved (Calvinism)

    Bible Answer:

    a. The Bible says that God wants all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:3-5; 2
    Pet. 3:9).

    b. Jesus died for the sins of all men, not just some who are
    pre-chosen (1 John 2:1-2).

    c. God has ordained that every person who believes on Christ will be
    saved (Jn. 6:40).

    d. God has commanded that the gospel be preached to every person (Mark 16:15).

    e. The Holy Spirit convicts every sinner and Jesus draws and gives
    light to every sinner (Jn. 1:9; 12:32; 16:7-8).

    f. Believers are the elect of God, but that does not mean that God
    chooses some to be saved and the others not to be saved. Election is
    based on God's foreknowledge (1 Pet. 1:2).

    :D

    -MH
     
  6. Rev. Lowery

    Rev. Lowery
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree also I believe if you take a Calvinist and an Arminian and put them in a blender you get the truth its a combination of daily perseverance and a whole hearted belief in Christs death, burial, and resurrection. By Gods Grace through Faith in Christ that saves us from sin, death, and Hell. Yes God knows who will be saved and who will not. Do we know ? No we do not. So we must therefore go to all nations preaching the gospel of Christ. Is there an elect? If by that you mean God choose only certain people to go to Heaven then your wrong. Christ died for the whole world that through him the world might be saved. Which means we have the choice even though God knows what our choice will be we still have it. If you accept Christ you know in your heart rather you did or did not.
    The Word will never contadict itself if your views contradict Gods word then your wrong.


    Rev. Jerry D. Lowery
     
  7. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ya know, that actually makes sense. There's some scriptural support for a calvinistic, and there's some scriptural support for an arminian view. But scripture does not appear to support one view to the point of negating the other. Hence, it's my opinion that hypercalvinism and hyperarminianism are both unscriptural.
     
  8. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's why I prefer the Free Grace position.
     
  9. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is there an expensive grace position?
     
  10. Heavy Metal Calvinist

    Heavy Metal Calvinist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2005
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    I just meant to say that Christ is better'n any old sign gifts, Bros. We ain't going to undo 500 years of debate on the Council of Dort VS Arminus....

    I am a cessasionist, and I think many signs and blunders wound and tear young believers- they become lost and tossed when they don't get this or that gift- "maybe you're in sin!"

    That kinda thing, folks. Pastors exegite 1 Cor 12-13 well to save some from being lost and tossed.

    A family member played a preaching tape for my wife. On it was a "prophecy" that her local preacher put out about ebola filled cars coming from Katrina wreckage- these cars will be sold and create a huge plague killing millions.

    My wife said pithly, "well if he's wrong, somebody needs to stone him, OT style."

    That is silliness no one hears about. And many people think they have to accept it as revelation.
     
  11. MatthewHenry

    MatthewHenry
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeppers. I've seen that too, I was involved in Pentecostalism for some 21 years. After seeing the cultish side of it, and being accused of "slipping in my Faith", Because I dared to challenge some of thier false doctrines. I decided my days in that cult of confusion were over for good. Now, I won't sit here and say, I think ALL "Pentecostals are going to hell, But I will say that I question some of thier so called conversions. There's no change, they act, dress, talk like the world. Bible says we're to repent and be converted, That Word Repent is to change one's mind and seperate one's self from the World. In ALL areas of one's life. I remember as a Pentecostal, how I could mock the Baptist's, used to call 'em Polished Bellied Pharisees. Man, was I ever wrong. Yeah, there's hypocrites in every CHurch, reguardless of Denomination, But you know what? The Baptist Doctrine and position has been around much longer than the Pentecostal and is based on a "Supposed" revival of the sign Gifts. trouble is, this "supposed" event that took place around 1909, and was never really recognised, nor came into the main stream until the 1960's when Chuck Smith's cult, AKA Calvary Chapel came on the scene.

    I know all the Tougue babblers in here hate me for ripping on your beliefs, but friends, I was there and I got out, with my Salvation intact.

    MH.
     
  12. Heavy Metal Calvinist

    Heavy Metal Calvinist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2005
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey MH, sounds like we have walked some of the same ground. I once had Charismatic pastor grab me by both ears, not let go and say back in '85 that I "wasn't lettin' go." I f I would let go, he said, God would do "X" and give me "Y." Those tongue people are all my family on my wife's side. I am the black sheep becaue I believe (well, I know that scripture teaches this) that the Apostolic gifts ceased, and I have seen the roadkill this movement produces.

    I just heard a 60 year old man say that God didn't want him because he hadn't been given the tongues yet. That man is religiously nuerotic, seeking an experience like a druggie seeks a fix. Grace doesn't turn us into experience seeking junkies. Grace is sufficient.....

    Oh, how I could tell about prophets who buned out after three months of intensity. Guys that drop out after the experience ends. I have a dear friend who is now divorced because he got into that Copeland health and wealth stuff. He is disillusioned and out of church. Bad doctrine kills. Good preachers and teachers need to preach abut cessationism and confront the evil of the charismatic movement. The beast ain't afraid to eat up Baptists- snatch 'em right out of the craddle. I know.
     
  13. music4Him

    music4Him
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2004
    Messages:
    3,333
    Likes Received:
    0
    quote by MatthewHenry
    -------------------------------------------------
    There's no change, they act, dress, talk like the world.
    -------------------------------------------------

    This you will find in all churches and it are those that will give other denomnations a bad rep because of a few who are mentioned in Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

    As for all the other that you have mentioned it has been debated and both sides present a very good argument. As far as the nine gifts of the Spirit (1Cor.12), you don't have to have them.... its not a requirement to get to heaven. My church is more into getting people saved although we do believe in the gifts.
     
  14. ChurchBoy

    ChurchBoy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Messages:
    598
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow, Lots of Christian love here! ;)
     
  15. MatthewHenry

    MatthewHenry
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, which christ do they preach? One who's Word is the final authority? or one's mixed with signs and wonders and what I like to call 'Christian Voodoo.."?

    What Saith Thee?

    MH
     
  16. MatthewHenry

    MatthewHenry
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yessiree! I've been there and done that. I never got grabbed by the ears. But I know what you're referring to.

    However, I did recieve anonymous threatening letters, (postmarked in the same city as the "Church" I once attended..) Anonymous e-mails, (sent via anonymous remailers) Been followed in my car by people from that Church or people hired by them to follow me. people called me house to speak to me, and when I'd get to the phone, they'd hang up. Oh, it's been an interesting year, to say the least. things have clamed down here in the last 6 months though, They seemed to have either lost interest or something.

    However, what they don't know is... I have factual information on that Church, that there are ties to Organized Crime...(read... Itailian Mafia) and I have the letters and e-mails and if they ever try anything stupid... I will go to the local media and police and their little cult will crumble to the ground... I should have already done it, But I've been buying my time.

    They're love is a conditional one, We'll love ya, until you step outta line, then your on our hit list.

    I guess that's what happens when you hook up with a bunch of "supposed" ex-catholics. (still are, if the truth was known...)

    MH
     
  17. MatthewHenry

    MatthewHenry
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh, you have no clue of the so called "love" of the False cult of pentecostalism, that I have experienced since the week after easter of 2004.

    Man, If that's love, give me Hate anyday! :eek: :rolleyes: [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  18. music4Him

    music4Him
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2004
    Messages:
    3,333
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh, you have no clue of the so called "love" of the False cult of pentecostalism, that I have experienced since the week after easter of 2004.

    Man, If that's love, give me Hate anyday! :eek: :rolleyes: [​IMG] [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]What happened? Do share. :confused:
     
  19. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Blaming an evangelist for a couple's marriage failing seems totally unrelated. Neither 'health' or 'wealth' brakes a marriage. Having a partner who is not totally committed to each other and the Lord can and often does bring failure. Many factors enter in when a marriage fails. Hating a system of theology is hardly a good reason for 'shredding' an international evangelist.

    I am not Pentecostal, but one of the big reasons their churches are growing will dead, formalistic church are doing much less is because most Pentecostal love the Lord and are open to the working of the Holy Spirit.

    I do not speak in tongues but once you start suggesting that the 'gifts of the Spirit' were for another period of time, then one might start disassembling the rest of N.T. theology. Maybe water baptism or Holy Communion can be peared away. No, rather we are to keep the N.T. in one unified teaching lest we take away from the Word of God, the Bible [Revelation 22:19].

    Remember in the N.T. when the disciples complained to Jesus that another man of God did not follow Jesus. Our Lord's answer was in effect, 'He that is not against us if for us.' [Mark 9:38-40].

    Just because other denominations have doctrines beyond 'the new birth' is no reason to verbally destroy other men and women of God. We should be slow to judge other Christians.

    In the northeast we call people like that, bigots.
     
  20. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG]

    Matthew Henry said: know all the Tougue babblers in here hate me for ripping on your beliefs, but friends, I was there and I got out, with my Salvation intact.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Tam says: No friend, I don't hate you. I will pray for you though, because you have obviously had a bad experience. Then your next mistake was to lump all full Gospels together, and "anybody" who says "any" of the gifts are still here is wrong.

    You are so misinformed and closed down that I feel so sorry for you.

    I will pray that God will open your eyes.

    Selah,

    Tam
     

Share This Page

Loading...