Featured People leaving Church

I disagreed with his last statement. It is not about knowing the hearts of others but about applying a distinction Scripture makes at "on that day" to those (even generally speaking) to these times. It harkens more to those like Daniel Parker than it does Scripture.

I agree with what you are getting at (churches trying to grow by appealing to the world, the dangers of such watered down doctrine, etc.). But we were called out from the world, we were once lost, we were once slaves to sin. We were never in that category of "goat". Scripture speaks of the world and the sheep in this lifetime. The goat illustration is "on that day". I disagreed because I think it important to keep it biblical even when we think unbiblical has a better slogan or cartoon or clown picture.

 

I think that I agree with what you are saying, just not how you stated it. I never took you to be claiming to know the heart of another (and I apologize that post# 62 could be taken that I did when that was not my intent).

Matthew 25 talks about the nations being gathered and God separating them AS a shepherd separates sheep from goats. This speaks of the actions of God and not "goats and sheep" coexisting in churches today. The Bible speaks of the world and the Church, of sheep called out from the world and sheep sent out into the world, of wheat and tares in the Church. I disagreed because I believe that it was a mistake to use “goats” as you have as it is not in context with what I have taken your reference to be (Matthew 25).

The difference is important. We were once slaves to sin, lost, without Christ. But we are His sheep. Had you used a biblical reference in context (i.e., the world) then I would have agreed with your post. I think that we need to be more careful with our words than we often are (even when the comparison would be cool on a t-shirt).

 

I'm reminded of a sermon (not by your post, Rob) by Jeremy Myers:

"In Luke 18:17, Jesus says that anyone who does not receive the kingdom like a little child shall not enter into it. Childlike faith provides entrance into the kingdom. And yet many Christians confuse having faith like a child with actually behaving like a child. There are many who may or may not have childlike faith, but who behave in childish ways. Jesus wants us to be childlike, not childish."

One reason churches struggle may be immaturity (both in the faith and in general).

 

First, I am trying to keep this on topic, but apologize if it drifts a bit. Second, to the other moderators and administrators – if this is misplaced then please feel free to delete the post. We have all agreed to be subject to have our posts edited or deleted at the discretion of the staff, and I (for one) appreciate the oversight as the tongue is often hard to control.

There are a few people here that are trying to derail this (and just about every thread that does not go their way). These people agreed to the rules of this forum yet their posts are often off topic, gossip, insulting, immature, and defamatory. Yet they hit the “agree” button when they joined (or rejoined) this forum. In other words, they are not true to their word.

They may object that others are also slacking in this regard, but the wrongs of others do not justify the wrongs they inflict (this was one of the hardest things I had to teach my solders when I was in service).

Other members agreed to those terms as well. It is right that they expect at least some degree of enforcement of what we’ve all agreed upon. It is not right that others are subject to defamatory remarks from a select few individuals. It is not right that topics (such as this one) become derailed because a couple of people want to gossip and play childish games.

You want to know why so many are leaving churches in the western world? This is one reason. Church has too often become a childish game without accountability, responsibility, or a sense of eternal consequence. You want to glimpse the problem? Look at the interactions of some right here on this forum.

Church membership is often taken far too lightly. There is no accountability or responsibility...no discipleship. It's far to easy to move from one church to another. (I'm one of those who believes that church membership approaches a covenant agreement between members). We live in an immature culture (grown men still spend hours playing video games and watching superhero movies). We have immature Christians. Well meaning people sometimes derail churches just like well meaning (giving benefit of the doubt) people derail threads here. Some people simply have agendas they want to shove down other's throats, regardless of the appropriateness of the action. Sometimes things are wrong not because of what they are but because of how or when they are presented.

 

Good point, Rob. I've wondered what the overall numbers would tell. We see people changing churches and denominations all the time. In my area we have dozens of "non-denominational" churches popping up, and some of them are rather large. Those people had to come from somewhere (I suspect many came from the churches who are experiencing a decline in numbers).

But numbers don't really tell the tell. Looking at the growth of other non-Christian churches, I have to wonder what many who are searching for something are actually finding. In my opinion we need to be less numbers driven and more gospel faithful.

 

Those are good questions, Van. At one time I would have said that we attend church to serve, but upon reflection I am not so sure that this is the case. The reason is that we serve but we are also served (we function as a member of the Body of Christ). I need to be uplifted, to be built up and equipped just as much as I am commanded to uplift, build up and equip others.

What your post made me wonder is if this sense of wanting to have our needs met plays into the decline in numbers within the mainline church (mainline churches are often seen as establishments where one’s spiritual needs are met), but the sense of needing to serve, to be “plugged in”, accounts for the decline in doctrine and a sense of dissatisfaction as people shift from one evangelical church to another (evangelical churches have, in my experience, sacrificed discipleship for evangelism).

I belonged to a church for years that was mostly show. It was evangelical and rushed to get people to “plug in” to some program. If you wanted to sing in front of the church, audition for the praise team. If you are good enough do audio/visual (several wanted to, but no one was good enough so they hired it out). It was serve, don’t be served. I think that a proper church has a balance in the sense that we are served (we are disciple, and our needs are met by the assembly) while we serve (we disciple and meet the needs of others).

I don’t know…those are just some thoughts. I may be influenced by my dissatisfaction from my experience. But as ThousandHills would say, it’s something that I’ve been “noodling”. And you've given me more to noodle.