Per the Bible: What Is Really the Extent Of man "Free Will?"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jul 7, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    just how really free are we to respond to God in of ourselves, as per the Biblical accounts?

    And IS there a difference between how Adam and we can act in this area?
     
  2. MB

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    The freedom to rebel or submit
    The freedom to rebel or submit
    Why would you think there is a difference? Adam certainly had freewill
    MB
     
  3. JesusFan

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    Adam was created perfect moral agent had a 'real" free will from God
    All of us were born into sin, are sinners free will now "limited"
     
  4. Winman

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    Why do you constantly ask questions as if you are seriously trying to learn, and then when one answers parrot Calvinistic doctrine? You already have your mind made up, so why are you asking questions?

    Even after the fall man had the ability to respond to God in free will.

    Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
    7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

    Cain could have done well, the Lord clearly implied this. And note that he would "be accepted" which shows that if he would have submitted to God and offered a proper sacrifice he would have been accepted or "chosen".

    Oh, I know, you will say Cain did not offer a proper sacrifice which proves he COULD NOT. This is a total fallacy. Just because Cain did not offer a proper sacrifice does not prove he couldn't have done otherwise, the Lord himself implied he could.

    And in Calvinism there is no "IF". Either you are elect and cannot help but obey, or you are unelect and cannot help but disobey. But the Lord himself used the word "if" clearly implying that Cain had the ability to obey or disobey.

    Lev 1: 1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
    2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
    3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

    Here, God himself said the children of Israel could offer a sacrifice of their "own voluntary will". If this does not convince you that men have their own voluntary (free) will, then I don't know what could convince you, you have to be oblivious to scripture not to see this.

    I showed you this verse in the past and said I had showed you scripture where God himself says men have free will, and asked you to show me any scripture that says man does not have free will.

    That challenge still stands, show me ANY scripture that says man does not have free will.

    Try answering this time with an answer, not another question as you typically do.
     
  5. JesusFan

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    So you see no difference to the Will of man before/after the fall of Adam then?
     
  6. Winman

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    You know, I am on to you, you are playing people. I have known that from the beginning.

    If you cannot show me a verse of scripture that says men do not have free will, I will not answer any more of your questions.
     
  7. MB

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    Not true and what's more you have no scripture to back up that assumption, and there is nothing in scripture to suggest there is. No where does scripture ever say we are unable to respond to the gospel or the drawing of God with out election or, for any reason. No where does it say that only a particular elect is able to respond to God or seek God. Inability is an assumption of someone's wild imagination. People are affraid they aren't elect. Even the one who claim they are because they believe. They are some how convinced that there belief insures there election. Sadly it doesn't.

    Adam wasn't born in sin, yet he sinned. Of course he wasn't born in sin because to begin with he was the only one on the earth besides God. A Law not to even touch the tree of knowledge was placed before Adam
    He couldn't help him self any more than any other sinner. Curosity over came him. His sin has no other effect except that it allowed sin to enter the world.
    MB
     
  8. JesusFan

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    So you would see NO difference between a man created perfect morally, and rest of us dead in sin and born as sinners?
     
  9. InTheLight

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    Not when it comes to choice.
     
  10. MB

    MB
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    We are not born as sinners we are born in a sinfull world. What sin do you suppose a baby has commited before birth.
    MB
     
  11. jbh28

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    sorry, but the Bible teaches over and over again the corruptness of man. Man is born in sin(Psalm 51:5), unable to come to God(John 6:44), unwilling to come to God (Romans 3:11). You can keep on trying to take a part, but I'm going to stick with the Bible. I wasn't saved because I was I chose him, I'm saved because he chose me(John 15:16). Did I choose him? Yes, but only because he first chose me. Otherwise, my choice would have remained to reject him.

    So please, don't say statements like "no Scripture to back up." You know very well this isn't true. You might interpret incorrectly, but we do have Scripture.

    Why be afraid. All the believe will be saved. Just believe. God rejects no one. All may come to him.
     
  12. jbh28

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    Yes. We have the imputed sinful nature from Adam. Our wills are a slave to sin(John 8:34). I've got nothing naturally righteous in me. I was 0% righteous. I'm save only because God in his mercy and grace saved me, not because of me.
     
  13. quantumfaith

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    JF,

    We do not know that Adam was created morally perfect, if so, why did man fall in first place. What we DO KNOW is that God said it was "very good". I think it much safer to assume that Adam was created morally innocent, but not morally perfect. Perhaps that is what you meant, but I do not want to put words in your mouth.
     
  14. quantumfaith

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    To the woman he said,

    “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
    with painful labor you will give birth to children.
    Your desire will be for your husband,
    and he will rule over you.”

    17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

    “Cursed is the ground because of you;
    through painful toil you will eat food from it
    all the days of your life.
    18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
    and you will eat the plants of the field.
    19 By the sweat of your brow
    you will eat your food
    until you return to the ground,
    since from it you were taken;
    for dust you are
    and to dust you will return.”

    Let's see, immediate to the Fall, there is no mention by God to Adam, that from this day forth you will be completely unable to seek me, know me or do anything in your spiritual best interest. Seems such and important and far reaching doctrine might have been given some time and explanation up front immediate to its implementation.
     
  15. Alive in Christ

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    Quantum, you posted...

    And then commented...

    The absence of such obviously important information sort of sticks out like a "sore thumb" doesnt it?
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    quantum;
    And it surely was given to Adam and Eve.....

    Dying thou shalt surely die.....God meant what he said.


    16And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat;

    17and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::applause:
     
  17. Alive in Christ

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    Iconoclast....

    Thats "physical" death, Iconoclast. Nothing about being dead to God, or unable to seek God, etc etc.


    Again, physical death. Nothing about being unable to seek God, or wonder about spiritual things, etc etc.

    The scriptures inform us clearly that "every man who comes into the world" is given "spiritual Light"... that they can understand and heed...if they choose to.
     
    #17 Alive in Christ, Jul 7, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2011
  18. Iconoclast

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    aic;
    And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding

    read and learn.....you said
    adam clarke
    john gill

     
  19. convicted1

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    Be careful when you make Adam a reference point. BTW, I agree with you, if that counts for anything.
     
  20. convicted1

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    Being in the FW camp, I agree with this post 100%. Great post Brother!! :thumbsup:
     

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