Perfection

Darrell C · Feb 15, 2010

Hi Olegig.

Hi Olegig, I only have a few minutes right no, but did want to respond to your reply (I am enjoying the dialogue, by the way). I will delete the sections we are in agreement on.

olegig said: ↑

I agree this doctrine (birth, death, resurrection) is made clear in Hebrews; but I feel the writer of Hebrews is now trying to "drive home" that message to the "Hebrews".

Absolutely. This is what I mean by cultural and historical context being overlooked. While it has application for today's believer, we must keep in mind the original recipients.

And, I hope to expand on this thought, the gospel is found in Hebrews. Keep in mind, the gospel is preached in Matt., Mark, Luke, and John, it is the same gospel, we can be sure from Heb. 4:1,2 as well as Paul's statements that there is one Gospel (albeit indirect).

Paul had a great love for the people of his heritage and certainly would wish them all brought into the Body; however he knew this was not to be.
IMO Paul wrote Hebrews, but the Holy Spirit had the wisdom to keep that a mystery so the specific doctrines of the book would not be confounded with the doctrines to the Church found in the 13 books which do set Paul as author.

Something interesting in Acts 21, Paul associates with a ritual of purification (so to speak) with those who had taken a vow. Now, this, I believe, was the Nazirite vow (which is why I say so to speak, due to the difference in what was given in the Law, and the actual performance in Christ's day), and there would have been a sacrifice involved with that custom.

I think some feel that when a Jew is saved, they must sacrifice all of their heritage. This is akin to those who think because we are not saved by the Law, we must ignore it. Both are in error.

I have to ask myself: "Who else but Paul could have written Hebrews?"...Paul was the only one who had a complete understanding of all the Jewish customs and rituals along with a full understanding of the total and complete effect of the shed blood and resurrection. (2Pet 3:15,16)
Paul was the perfect man for the Holy Spirit to use in the combination of the Old with the New.

I myself think Paul is the writer as well, hence, the anonymity (it would not have been received by many Jews who despised Paul for an infidel), but I am not dogmatic about this, and express it as opinion only. Suffice it to say, God is the Author.

But you are dead on in your reasoning.

Now please recall what I said in previous post about taking the 13 books of Paul out for a different "snap-shot" of scripture.
IMO the book of Hebrews is the perfect transition of the OT Jewish rituals into the New through the addition of the perfect sacrifice (blood of Christ), thus removing the further need for any more blood sacrifice while retaining all the other things of worship.
I say "retaining other things of worship" because even though we refer to those things as "Jewish" they are of God.
The Jewish did not invent them, they came from God. They are God's form of worship, they are only a picture or example of the things of Heaven. (Heb 9:23ff)
Granted, the Jews had added a lot of extra baggage that one must separate as "of man".

I agree with this for the most part, and think it is in keeping with the Jews retaining their Heritage, as a distinct people. Strangely, scripture implies that in the millennial kingdom Hebrew customs will be in place (see Zech. 14 for an example). I don't completely understand this, but haven't spent too much time trying to reason it out.

As far as the collective body of believers, I see them as one group, with possibly the exception of those in the Church age (again, some of my thoughts are speculation: such as, I think the Church will minister to millennial kingdom saints [believers] similiar to the ministry of angels. Again, it isn't something I necessarily believe, but speculate about).

However, I cannot apply the security of salvation to everyone in the Bible who is not member of the Body, in Christ.
This is one area of which I mentioned I disagree with Baptist doctrine.
And this is one reason for examining Hebrews...it makes the same point. This is the reason for the numerous warnings not to depart, but to draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith.

Here let me be brief and we can certainly explore this in more detail later.
I believe the security of salvation for the Body is grounded in two things.
1. Being "in Christ" makes us all in the linage of David and thus under the protection of the Davidic Covenant.
2. Being "in Christ" means that we are indwelt permanently by the Holy Spirit who is the earnest of our future complete salvation (a glorified body).

The Holy Spirit comes into us with the circumcision made without hands, separating our soul from our body so the actions of the body can no longer stain our soul as was true of the OT saint.
Here I must ask: "Can the Holy Spirit re-attach the body and soul of a person if that person suddenly becomes an unbeliever?????" nonsense!

If you mean that our standing before God is "stainless" in the sense that Christ's righteousness is what our eternal fate is judged by, I would agree. We would probably have to discuss the three-part/ two part issue to get into detail on this. I also agree that the new birth is a change in nature that cannot be undone.

If it could, this is how God would judge sinning Christians rather than sickness and temporal death.

But again, did the Holy Spirit indwell the OT saint? Will the Holy Spirit indwell believers still on earth after the rapture of the Church?
I see no scriptural evidence of either of the above.

Great question (not that it was really a question). Though my answer is not perfect, see what you think.

The ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament was different than that in the Church Age (sorry, its the best term I have for it), He was, in my opinion, indwelling people at that time. I also believe He will revert to this ministry in the tribulation and Millennial Kingdom.

Notice in 1 Samuel 10 the Spirit of the Lord coming upon Saul (He leaves Saul later); notice in 1 Samuel 16 the Spirit of the Lord comes upon David from that day forward. We do not, as in Saul's case, see the Spirit of the Lord departing as we see in Saul's case (see v. 14). It was not a permanent indwelling, as in His ministry today (whereby we are sealed and He is the "earnest" [downpayment]), but an indwelling all the same.

But I have never attended a baptist fellowship that believed in universal salvation...but I know there are some who claim to be baptist but are far removed from baptist doctrine.

God bless
Click to expand...

Well, I've run out of time for now. I'll try to get back to this one later.

I also need to get the actual study going. This I greatly would appreciate the views of fellow believers on.

The contrast between O.T. Hebrew faith and N.T. Hebrew faith is one thing (as you pointed out) that is overlooked in this book.

Another quick note concerning the gospel. It is preached in John, but the word gospel (to my knowledge) is not used. But this is one of the great books explaining the gospel.

Gotta go for now,

God bless.

Darrell C · Feb 18, 2010

Hi to all,

Just a quick reply to make sure it will post (had a problem for some reason before, and a "fatal error" came up).

I will present the verses that will be the foundation of the study, in which the word perfect/complete are used in various form representing the same concept.

Once you have looked at the key verses, we can look at the passages individually and discuss context.

Those who study greek can be a great help to this study ( I am a poor student) and their input would be valued.

God bless.

Darrell C · Feb 18, 2010

Hebrews

2:10-For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect (5048) through sufferings.

5048-teleioo: from 5046; to complete, i.e. (lit.) accomplish, or (fig.) consumate (in character). Translated: consecrate, finish, fulfill, (make)perfect.

5:9-And being made perfect (5048), he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

5:14-But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age (5046), who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

5046-teleios:complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); completeness. Translated: (of) full age, man, and perfect.

6:1-Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection (5047), not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

5047-teleiotes-(the state of) completeness (ment. or mor.). Translated perfection (ness).

7:11-If therefore perfection (5050) were by the Levitical Priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should arise after the order of Melchisadec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

5050-teleiosis-; from 5048, (the act) completion, i.e. (of prophecy) verification, or (of expiation [to make amends for]); absolution [remission of sins].

7:19-For the law made nothing perfect (5048), but the bringing in of a better hope did, by the which we draw nigh unto God.

7:28-For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated (5048) for evermore.

9:9-Which was a figure for the time present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect (5048).

10:1-For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which were offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect (5048).

10:14-For by one offering he hath perfected (5048) forever them that are sanctified.

11:39-And all these, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise.
40-God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect (5048).

12:2-Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher (5051) of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

5051-teleiotes-from 5048; a completer, i.e. consumater: -finisher.

Please look through these and see if an evident contrast of the Old and New is made clear.

Would like to know your thoughts on these.

God bless.

olegig · Feb 19, 2010

Hello Darrell,

First let me apologize for not replying sooner, it has been a busy week and I appreciate your prayers and understanding.

I wish to respond to things from #21 although I don't think I can give all points therein proper response.
I will touch on a few and we can go into them deeper later if needed; but I don't want to get "derailed" from Hebrews.
I may pickup the later points first just to get them out of the way. I will be placing the things you said in blue....

I think some feel that when a Jew is saved, they must sacrifice all of their heritage. This is akin to those who think because we are not saved by the Law, we must ignore it. Both are in error.

Let me just say here that I do believe when a Jew is saved today they should pay attention to Col 2:16 just as any gentile should.
However they do have a rich heritage which can be a very beautiful form of worship; but should not look to it as any support of salvation.

But it seems the converted Jews at the very first of the NT were some of the ones causing Paul the most grief. They were the ones trying to lay all kinds of legalistic things on the new converts of Paul. Paul addressed this in Gal 1:6ff calling this not another gospel, but a perversion of the gospel of Christ.
IMO this was the basis of the argument at the council of Acts 15.
Acts is a transitional book between the old and new, so it not unusual to see those early believing Jews in transition.
We see Ananias described in Acts 9:10 as a disciple but also in Acts 22:12 he is described as a devout man according to the law.

Strangely, scripture implies that in the millennial kingdom Hebrew customs will be in place (see Zech. 14 for an example). I don't completely understand this, but haven't spent too much time trying to reason it out.
I see mention in the OT of many Jewish customs in place in the millennial kingdom. They will go annually up to Jerusalem to worship the King and gentiles will grab hold of their cloak to go with them.
I do not find it strange for I see it as finally the perfect promised land.

As far as the collective body of believers, I see them as one group, with possibly the exception of those in the Church age (again, some of my thoughts are speculation: such as, I think the Church will minister to millennial kingdom saints [believers] similiar to the ministry of angels. Again, it isn't something I necessarily believe, but speculate about).

Here again, I feel we should look to the promises God made to each group. The promises are different, so thus will be the groups.
The Jew was promised a land and the Church age believers are promised a glorified body.

If you mean that our standing before God is "stainless" in the sense that Christ's righteousness is what our eternal fate is judged by, I would agree.
Yes, God sees us through and in Christ. When God looks on us, all He sees is the righteousness of Christ.

The ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament was different than that in the Church Age (sorry, its the best term I have for it), He was, in my opinion, indwelling people at that time. I also believe He will revert to this ministry in the tribulation and Millennial Kingdom.
Here I don't know if the above came out like you wanted....
I would term it that in the OT the Holy Spirit visited men while in the NT the Holy Spirit indwells the believer.
I too feel that the Holy Spirit's relationship to the believer in the tribulation will be much like in the OT.

Notice in 1 Samuel 10 the Spirit of the Lord coming upon Saul (He leaves Saul later); notice in 1 Samuel 16 the Spirit of the Lord comes upon David from that day forward.
Here I would refer to what I said earlier concerning the Davidic Covenant.
And I do agree king Saul had it and then lost it.

Another quick note concerning the gospel. It is preached in John, but the word gospel (to my knowledge) is not used.
As with the passage from Rev concerning the Everlasting Gospel, I see nothing in the 4 gospel accounts that would lead me to feel those hearing any of the accounts believed in the death, burial, and resurrection.
All I can gather is they believed that Jesus truly was the promised Messiah, the Son of the living God as Peter said.

And, I hope to expand on this thought, the gospel is found in Hebrews. Keep in mind, the gospel is preached in Matt., Mark, Luke, and John, it is the same gospel, we can be sure from Heb. 4:1,2 as well as Paul's statements that there is one Gospel (albeit indirect).
Let us consider Heb 4 for a while......

Hebrews 4 (King James Version)
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

First please note in the above passage no mention of heaven or eternal life, words which would be associated and understood by Church age believers.

IMO the setting for the passage is revealed in vs 4.
The original Sabbath was a seventh day rest of God Himself (Gen 2).
It was revealed to Moses on Mt Sinai (Neh 9:13ff) as a holy Sabbath. (Yet again the Jewish religion is truly God's religion)
Keeping the Sabbath, the seventh day, was given to Israel as a sign (Ez 20:20) because God foreknew Israel would sometime in the future be converted and be head of all nations in the seventh millennium!
Please remember what Peter said about a day to the Lord is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day.
There were six days of creation and rest on the seventh.
There will be 6 one-thousand yr periods and then a one-thousand yr period of rest.
And vs 4 above is referring to this last period of rest.

IMO this passage, along with the whole book of Hebrews is preparing the people of God, the Jews, to enter into their promised land, the thousand yr millennial reign of Christ.

This final entry was first rehearsed when Joshua and Caleb said yes, we can go in and take the land, but they did not go in because of what??
They did not enter into the land because of their unbelief. (Heb 3:19)

IMO the book of Hebrews is doctrinally directed toward the Jew during the Tribulation and giving them encouragement to not take the mark, to keep the commandments, and to endure to the end.

Darrell C · Feb 20, 2010

Hi Olegig,

Just a quick reply (its late).

Glad to hear from you.

I see a continuity in scripture that joins each of the Covenants: All will be fulfilled in eternity (yes, even the "Law"/mosaic covenant, in the sense that it was fulfilled in Christ).

The New Covenant is complete, whereas the law (Old Covenant) was not.

The heritage of the Jews, I agree, does not add to the work of Christ.

But I don't see two groups as far as eternity goes concerning believers. The "rest" I see as entering into "the promised land", the true: heaven (the presence of God.

Hebrews leads the Judaizer from the basic principles to the perfection (fulfillment of the law, literally, and in prophecy).

When they "leave" the basic principles, they don't forsake them, but move past them (as a starting point).

The law (Old Covenant)-a picture of what was to come.

The New Covenant- the fulfillment (the appearing of what was in that picture).

As Christians, we don't despise the law (neither do we try to be saved by fulfilling it).

Concerning the Holy Spirit, indwelling was probably not the best way to put it, perhaps "came upon" would be better. But it was still the working of the Holy Spirit.

I would probably point to Thomas and the two disciples on the road to Emmaus concerning those who believed in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

Concerning Hebrews 4:

Again, the true rest is Heaven itself, I believe.

I do agree that the 6000/1000 years can be compared with the 6 days/1 day of creation (it makes perfect sense to me).

The main thrust of Hebrews is to persuade Jews (Judaizers) to leave the basic principles of Christ found in the Law (used euphemistically of O.T. scripture, and also found in the Psalms and Prophets) and move on to the perfection in Christ.

Which is the reason for the study on "perfection".

It will help us to understand Hebrews' teaching on Christ and the believer, and, I think, give the true believer assurance as no other book can.

Anyway, look at the verses, and tell me your thoughts on them.

God bless, brother.

olegig · Feb 20, 2010

Hey Darrell,

Darrell C said: ↑

The New Covenant is complete, whereas the law (Old Covenant) was not.
Click to expand...

Just a question here for clarity of positions.
Do you feel the Christian today is under the New Covenant of Heb 8:8?

Darrell C said: ↑

But I don't see two groups as far as eternity goes concerning believers. The "rest" I see as entering into "the promised land", the true: heaven (the presence of God.
Click to expand...

To fully develop this concept one must start with the Abrahamic Covenant. There we see two parts to the promise, one a promise of an earthly land, and the other part is heavenly (of the stars in heaven).
Paul refers to the Church age believers as being under the heavenly part.
Then we go on to where Paul mentioned the Jew, gentile, and the Church of God.
Then we see one group caught out before the tribulation begins, and another group on earth during the tribulation just as we saw Enoch caught up before the flood and Noah being protected during the flood.
Then we see one group on earth worshipping the King, going up to Jerusalem annually,,,etc and the other group ruling and reigning with Christ.
A study of the resurrections also shows a separation.
Then we see a new heaven and a new earth.
Then we see some eating of the tree of life monthly,,,,,,the believer today is promised eternal life, not access to a tree.

The above is just a short summary of the separation I see maintained in scripture. I did not take the time to give all the references, but we can search them out and I feel anyone who has studied the scriptures is familiar with the concepts I mentioned.

Darrell C said: ↑

Hebrews leads the Judaizer from the basic principles to the perfection (fulfillment of the law, literally, and in prophecy).
Click to expand...

Here, I am not clear by what you mean with the term "Judaizer".
Again, I feel Hebrews is doctrinally directed to the Jew who finds himself on earth during the 7yr tribulation and giving him direction and instruction from God.

Darrell C said: ↑

Concerning the Holy Spirit, indwelling was probably not the best way to put it, perhaps "came upon" would be better. But it was still the working of the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...

Here I feel the main thing is that we agree the Holy Spirit could and did leave (at various times) the OT saint.
While the Holy Spirit cannot and does not leave the NT believer.

Darrell C said: ↑

I would probably point to Thomas and the two disciples on the road to Emmaus concerning those who believed in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
Click to expand...

I would point to Peter and his recorded preaching.
Does Peter in Acts 2:38 make mention of just believing on the death, burial, and resurrection and nothing else?

Darrell C said: ↑

Concerning Hebrews 4:
Again, the true rest is Heaven itself, I believe.
Click to expand...

Yes, the true rest is Heaven, but many times tradition has led us to look to Heaven as a great spiritual meeting place in the sky.
Heaven is a creation, it is physical and the scriptures continually speak of Heaven coming down to earth.
IMO "Heaven on earth" is the same as return to the original intent of God, the garden of Eden.
I think this concept should be considered when studying future events.

Darrell C said: ↑

Anyway, look at the verses, and tell me your thoughts on them.
God bless, brother.
Click to expand...

I am looking forward to the study and God bless you.

Darrell C · Feb 20, 2010

Hello brother Olegig,

olegig said: ↑

Hey Darrell,

Just a question here for clarity of positions.
Do you feel the Christian today is under the New Covenant of Heb 8:8?

I do. As prophecy unfolds throughout scripture, it becomes more aand more revealed in clarity. The Covenants of old are in keeping with the New, and in a steady progression accomodate and compliment each other. Even the Mosaic Covenant: it pointed to the New, and prefigured the New, and is fulfilled in the New as to what it represented.

I know there are those who deny we are under the New, based on the fact that it was said to be for Israel

But if you see the saints of all ages as belonging to God (the people of God), you will see His blessings are meant for that group.

The fact of gentile inclusion in those blessings was a mystery, and this is why Gentile salvation is so prominent in Acts.

Paul said God "hath made us able ministers of the new testament" (2 Cor. 3:6), and it should be noted that I believe firmly he spoke of the New Covenant, not the "new testament" as in the collective books of the New Testament. Testament and Covenant are the same word.

And...in Ezekial 36 (esp. 24-27), we see characteristics of the blessing of the New Covenant, and this I believe to be what Nicodemus should have thought of when the Lord asked him, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"

They are strikingly similiar to the characteristics found in one born again.

To fully develop this concept one must start with the Abrahamic Covenant. There we see two parts to the promise, one a promise of an earthly land, and the other part is heavenly (of the stars in heaven).
Paul refers to the Church age believers as being under the heavenly part.
Then we go on to where Paul mentioned the Jew, gentile, and the Church of God.
Then we see one group caught out before the tribulation begins, and another group on earth during the tribulation just as we saw Enoch caught up before the flood and Noah being protected during the flood.
Then we see one group on earth worshipping the King, going up to Jerusalem annually,,,etc and the other group ruling and reigning with Christ.
A study of the resurrections also shows a separation.
Then we see a new heaven and a new earth.
Then we see some eating of the tree of life monthly,,,,,,the believer today is promised eternal life, not access to a tree.

The above is just a short summary of the separation I see maintained in scripture. I did not take the time to give all the references, but we can search them out and I feel anyone who has studied the scriptures is familiar with the concepts I mentioned.

This is an interesting concept, but one I will have to bear in mind when looking at scripture. Something like this will take much study to come to a conclusion on.

But I see what you are saying.

Here, I am not clear by what you mean with the term "Judaizer".
Again, I feel Hebrews is doctrinally directed to the Jew who finds himself on earth during the 7yr tribulation and giving him direction and instruction from God.

I use the term Judaizer not in the negative connotation it normally holds for us (one seeking justification by the works of the law), but those who are practicing Judaism, as many in the audience of Hebrews had done, and still clung to.

While I'm sure Hebrews will be invaluable to the Jew in the Tribulation, the immediate context would take precedence (the historical aspect, primarily).

As Exodus is a book showing God's redemption from the world to serve the One True God, so Hebrews is a book showing redemption from the Law.

It is the progression of prophecy, leaving the basic principles of Christ (not despising them) and moving on to the True intent of the law: God's reconciling us to Him.

Here I feel the main thing is that we agree the Holy Spirit could and did leave (at various times) the OT saint.
While the Holy Spirit cannot and does not leave the NT believer.

Absolutely agreed.

I would point to Peter and his recorded preaching.
Does Peter in Acts 2:38 make mention of just believing on the death, burial, and resurrection and nothing else?

Please understand, I do not believe in "easy-believism". At the same time, I do see in scripture that salvation is God's work. Without the working of the Holy Spirit in an unbeliever's life, one could not be saved.

God brings about repentance, belief, and faith in the heart of the sinner through His word.

There is only one gospel. And even as every encounter of witness is different, so is the presentation of the gospel. Those in the wilderness were given the gospel, and it did not include specific detail concerning the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, but it was the same message.

Those in this audience would have understood Peter's message to include these details.

If you go back to 21-32, the same message of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is given. Prophecy of all ages point to Christ and His work.

The Philippian Jailer is not said to repent, but that is implied, even though it is not specifically mentioned. He understood he needed to be saved, he just did not know how.

Yes, the true rest is Heaven, but many times tradition has led us to look to Heaven as a great spiritual meeting place in the sky.
Heaven is a creation, it is physical and the scriptures continually speak of Heaven coming down to earth.

I do not claim to understand fully, but it is necessary to keep in mind "God is Spirit".

The physical earth was created for His creation. I would offer the analogy of an aquarium: if you wanted a fish, you would create a suitable environment for it. So God created an environment for man. We will one day be spiritual, and there wil be a physical aspect to this (as the Lord ate, after glorification), but I really don't know the fulness of what is to be.

You raise some interesting points though, and I look forward to looking at these.

God bless.

IMO "Heaven on earth" is the same as return to the original intent of God, the garden of Eden.
I think this concept should be considered when studying future events.

I am looking forward to the study and God bless you.
Click to expand...

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Darrell C · Feb 20, 2010

Greetings to all,

Hopefully by this time you have spent time with the Lord in the book of Hebrews, one of my favorite books.

As has been suggested by one brother, if for some reason Acts through Philemon should be taken away from those who seek God, what conclusion would seekers come to.

I would suggest they would be pointed to Christ, inevitably, for He is the Spirit of prophecy, and the fulfillment of God's revelation concerning mankinds salvation.

The theology of today is so diverse that one wonders how there could be so many viewpoints concerning interpretation.

This is not something I wonder about, because I see the division of lost and saved as the "many" (lost) and the "few" (saved). That is not to say many will not be saved, but that of the current population (of any age), many will be compared to few.

The imposition of "religiosity" into Christianity is inevitable, as it was in Judaism. Mankind has a hard time in possessing faith in the God who said "I am the Savior": he must get in the last word.

I believe we have entered the "eleventh hour", and that it is imperative we need to put more emphasis on proclaiming the Gospel, and in the process give God glory for His infinite mercy.

Battling works-based faiths is a harder proposition than that of atheism, because we are dealing with a condition older than Godlessness: religion.

Maintaining scriptural integrity without giving an impression of easy-believism and license to sin may be difficult, but not impossible.

The doctrine that teaches faith-plus-works is in my opinion one of the greatest enemies of the gospel, because it draws one away from faith in God through Jesus Christ, and teaches self-reliance in self.

Battling the religious mind is one of our great battlefields, and the best defense is a good offense.

Examining the scripture used by the religious is where to start, and Hebrews of all books, in my estimation, is one of the best places to start.

As scripture interprets scripture, we can often go back in scripture to find meaning in a text. This is true of scripture as a whole, and can be true book by book.

As the study title suggests, "perfection" as found in the book of Hebrews is a little misleading, for the human mind will automatically try to place a concept from the first century into 21st century terms.

This leads the casual reader to automatically deny that human perfection is impossible (and the conclusion is right) and therefore miss the entire meaning to be found.

Perfection in Hebrews does not speak of human perfection (temporal), but the completion found in faith in Christ.

It speaks of our standing before God in His Son.

As we look into this book, we can see the perfection in God's plan, and rejoice.

Again, if you have not yet studied the supplied verses, please do so.

Just the reading of these verses themselves will give an indication of the glorious truth that all glory belongs to God and His Christ...and that what He has said He will do, He has done.

*God bless the reading of your Word, and open the scriptures to us*

Darrell C · Feb 20, 2010

Perfection in Practice

Hebrews 13:20-Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21-Make you perfect (2675) in every good work to do his will, working in you that whichis wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

2675-katartizo, (kat-ar-tid'-zo); from 2596 and a derivative of 739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (lit. or fig.) or adjust: Translated fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect (ly join together), prepare, restore.

Is it coincedence that this word is different than that of our key verses? I have yet to find coincedence in the workings of God.

Rather, our context is inarguably dealing with the temporal life of the believer.

13:1-Let brotherly love continue.

2-Be not forgetful entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

3-Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.

4-Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

5-Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave nor forsake thee.

6-So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

7-Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

8-Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.

I will try to keep my commentary to a minimum, and rather, let the passage speak for itself.

But as we step into the pages of Hebrews, I see this as a good place to start, in recognizing where temporal is contrasted with eternal; as well as shadow contrasted with true.

The Spirit points out qualities to be found in our lives:
Love(v.1), kindness (v.2), compassion (v.3), faithfulness (v.4), pure testimony, contentedness, and faith in Jesus[c.f. v.5 w. v.8] (v.5), fearlessness [again, faith in Christ] (v.6), submission/humility (v. 7), and again, confidence in Christ as our saviour (v.8).

I will pause here for two reasons:
1-For thoughts from you (agreement/criticism);
2-Sometimes I have a problem posting, and am reticent to type too much at a time ( I am computer illiterate).

God bless

Darrell C · Feb 20, 2010

Perfection in Practice II

We continue to establish this passage to refer to the temporal life of the believer, with instruction in righteousness for our lives.

To see the difference between the life of a believer as opposed to the position of the believer before God.

13:9-Be not carried away with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

10-We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

11-For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

12-Wherefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

13-Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

14-For here we have no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

15-By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

16-But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

17-Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

18-Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

19-But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner.

Again, we see in this the life of the true believer on earth, and God's expectation of our lives.

As we explore Hebrews further, we will see the explicit reference to the position of the believer in Christ and its eternality by virtue of Christ's death.

God bless.

olegig · Feb 20, 2010

Hello Darrell,

from # 47...olegig in red, Darrell in blue..

Just a question here for clarity of positions.
Do you feel the Christian today is under the New Covenant of Heb 8:8?
I do.
I wish in the interest of time I had also asked if you feel the New Covenant of Heb 8:8 is the same as in Jer 31:31ff and further described in Zec 13:3.

I will respond as if you do, for most equate the two; however if you feel they are not the same, then I would ask where in scripture is the description of the New Covenant of Heb 8:8.

First-- I must again say I do not feel, nor see in scripture where the Bride of Christ is ever equated with the house of Israel or Judah.
Spiritual Israel, perhaps, meaning that part of Israel that has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as saviour.
But "the house of" is a reference to physical Israel.

Second-- Please read the account of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 paying special attention to vs 34.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Do the things of vs 34 sound anything like what we know to be our instructions from God today?
Are not we to teach every man? Does everyone know God?

And please look at Zec 13:3, is that of today when parents should "thrust through" a son who prophesieth (teaches)?

I say again, the scriptures maintain separation between the Jew, gentile, and church of God, and I feel we should as well.

I know there are those who deny we are under the New, based on the fact that it was said to be for Israel
But if you see the saints of all ages as belonging to God (the people of God), you will see His blessings are meant for that group.
Is not basing it on the fact that it was said to be for Israel enough?????
I do see the saints of all ages as belonging to God; but I also see the term "people of God" as referring to the wife of God, Israel, as in "chosen people" while the Bride of Christ is separate.

We see types and examples all through scripture because when God does something He does it right the first time so therefore every time it is repeated it is done the same.
Abraham sent his servant to bring a bride for Isaac and Isaac's bride was not Abraham's wife.

Paul said God "hath made us able ministers of the new testament" (2 Cor. 3:6), and it should be noted that I believe firmly he spoke of the New Covenant, not the "new testament" as in the collective books of the New Testament. Testament and Covenant are the same word.
Are they indeed the same word? If they mean the same, then why does the Holy Spirit in the book of Hebrews go to lengths explaining their difference? (Heb 9:15ff)

Here I would repeat in agreement with something said in post #29.
Is it coincedence that this word is different than that of our key verses? I have yet to find coincedence in the workings of God.

And...in Ezekial 36 (esp. 24-27), we see characteristics of the blessing of the New Covenant, and this I believe to be what Nicodemus should have thought of when the Lord asked him, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"
I totally agree the passage from Eze 36 gives characteristics of the blessing of the New Covenant; but please do not stop with vs 27 for vs 28 is Jewish through and through.
Where is the Christian promised a land that was given to our fathers?
The Christian is promised a Glorified Body.

IMO things that are different, are different; and things that are separate, are separate.

And please consider when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus the parenthetical Church age was yet a mystery revelation of which was dependant upon all Israel accepting Jesus as the promised Messiah.

I refer to my speaking of taking out the books written by Paul, and yes, in that senario the New Covenant of Heb would have been instigated shortly after the passing of the Old.
But because of Israel's rejection of the First Advent, everything Jewish has been put on hold until the fulness of the gentles be come in and then all Israel will be saved. (Rom 11:25ff)

This is an interesting concept, but one I will have to bear in mind when looking at scripture. Something like this will take much study to come to a conclusion on.
Yes it does, and it has.
I tell my SS class students it is much like the "color" commentator on a TV football game. He must know the role and responsibility of each of the 22 players before he can give the game just comment.

Please understand, I do not believe in "easy-believism".
And nor do I....I believe, just as revealed through Paul, that the lost of today are to believe on the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ plus nothing, not repentance, not "saying the sinner's prayer", not water baptism, nothing,, for all these things come after belief and are made effective by the working of the Holy Spirit in one's self.
But I find nothing "easy" in the above for it seems to be very difficult for the world to grasp and follow.

There is only one gospel.
Gospel means "good news"...
Did Peter know anything of the indwelling Holy Spirit as earnest of salvation until that good news was revealed through Paul?
Did Peter tell his audience of Acts 2 the good news that all one must do to be saved is to believe on the death, burial, and resurrection as revealed through Paul, or did Peter tell his audience the good news of having to first do the work of repenting and water baptism?
Did Joshua and Caleb know the good news of the free gift of salvation as revealed through Paul when they stood at the entrance to the promised land or did they only know the gospel (good news) of armed victory with God leading them? (Num 13:30; 14:9; Ex 34:11 Josh 14:5-14)
Are the present day Jews operating under the good news revealed through Paul or are they operating under the gospel of Zec 12:1-7.

Again, in all humbleness, I say things that are different, are different.

We will one day be spiritual, and there wil be a physical aspect to this (as the Lord ate, after glorification), but I really don't know the fulness of what is to be.
If this is our eternal state, then is it not far more real than what we see today?

Darrell, I realize our conversations over the last few days are not really where you would wish to take this thread; therefore it is fine with me if you wish to focus more on the study than on replying to my rants....

have a great weekend....and God bless

Darrell C · Feb 21, 2010

Hi Brother Olegig,

I love responding to rants (the spice of life).

Plus, it can take us into the next part of the study.

God bless...be right back.

Darrell C · Feb 21, 2010

Hi again, I am playing with the Quote button to see if I can separate this a little bit.
Click to expand...

First-- I must again say I do not feel, nor see in scripture where the Bride of Christ is ever equated with the house of Israel or Judah.
Spiritual Israel, perhaps, meaning that part of Israel that has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as saviour.
But "the house of" is a reference to physical Israel.

I know where you are coming from on this, but again, spiritual Israel are those who belong to God.

Think about this question: does Abraham believe in Jesus Christ? The answer is yes. At this time, he has a better understanding than we do, because he is already with the Lord. But we have a better understanding than he did when he was alive.

Abraham was not of the house of Israel, he was a gentile, basically. And I do not put much stock in the "Two House" business, as some do. All of believing Israel are God's.

Believers in the Tribulation and Millennial Kingdom will believe on the name of Jesus Christ, for this is God's plan for all men (there is none other name given under heaven...).

It is true that Temple sacrifice and ceremony will play a part in the M.K., but I don't see a problem with that: as we partake of communion in memory of Christ's death, I see this as similar...sacrifice offered according to their heritage in memorium.
Click to expand...

Second-- Please read the account of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 paying special attention to vs 34.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Do the things of vs 34 sound anything like what we know to be our instructions from God today?
Are not we to teach every man? Does everyone know God?

Again, this time (the M.K.) will be different, reverting to an Old Testament type.
Click to expand...

And please look at Zec 13:3, is that of today when parents should "thrust through" a son who prophesieth (teaches)?

I say again, the scriptures maintain separation between the Jew, gentile, and church of God, and I feel we should as well.

I lean more towards the "middle wall of partition has been broken down", there is neither Jew nor Gentile, man or woman.

I see no separation of true believers.
Click to expand...

Is not basing it on the fact that it was said to be for Israel enough?????

To seclude the New Covenant to Israel would also be to seclude the new birth to Israel; the mystery was that gentiles would be included in this
Click to expand...

I do see the saints of all ages as belonging to God; but I also see the term "people of God" as referring to the wife of God, Israel, as in "chosen people" while the Bride of Christ is separate.

As a wife, Israel played the harlot. As the bride, we are presented without spot (because of the New Covenant blessings: we are spotless because of Christ's imputed righteousness, and that God will remember no more our sin.
Click to expand...

We see types and examples all through scripture because when God does something He does it right the first time so therefore every time it is repeated it is done the same.
Abraham sent his servant to bring a bride for Isaac and Isaac's bride was not Abraham's wife.

I guess you mean she was a type(figure) of the bride?
Click to expand...

Paul said God "hath made us able ministers of the new testament" (2 Cor. 3:6), and it should be noted that I believe firmly he spoke of the New Covenant, not the "new testament" as in the collective books of the New Testament. Testament and Covenant are the same word.
Are they indeed the same word? If they mean the same, then why does the Holy Spirit in the book of Hebrews go to lengths explaining their difference? (Heb 9:15ff)

Hebrews doesn't contrast the New Covenant of the Jews with the New Covenant of the Gentiles: it contrasts the Covenant of Law (Mosaic Covenant) with the New Covenant.
Click to expand...

Here I would repeat in agreement with something said in post #29.
Is it coincedence that this word is different than that of our key verses? I have yet to find coincedence in the workings of God.

Again, the promise is not to Israel only. The Abrahamic Covenant itself was said to bless Gentiles as well. God has always been merciful to any man who loves Him.
Click to expand...

Where is the Christian promised a land that was given to our fathers?
The Christian is promised a Glorified Body.

This is a great Question.

Hebrews 4:1-Let us fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2-For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them; but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3-For we which believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4-For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, and God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5-And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

6-Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

7-Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, Today, after so long a time; as it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8-For if Jesus (Joshua) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9-There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

The promise of rest was pictured in Israel entering the promised land. We see that at the time of David (v.7), this rest had not been given in its fulfillment.

It is fulfilled in doing what the Israelites did not do...beleive the gospel of God in faith.

This is the true rest. We can enter that rest by faith in Christ.

After listing those who did have faith in that time (ch. 11), God says this:

11:39-And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40-God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Note 12:18-For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched (the law)...

22-But ye are come unto mount Sion (the true/complete), and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23-To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to spirits of just men made perfect.

Those of faith under the law who had faith in God are made complete with us. Included in the list of faithful are those before the law (Abel, etc.), and those under the law (They could not be made perfect in their standing before God before the Cross.
Click to expand...

IMO things that are different, are different; and things that are separate, are separate.

And please consider when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus the parenthetical Church age was yet a mystery revelation of which was dependant upon all Israel accepting Jesus as the promised Messiah.

I refer to my speaking of taking out the books written by Paul, and yes, in that senario the New Covenant of Heb would have been instigated shortly after the passing of the Old.
But because of Israel's rejection of the First Advent, everything Jewish has been put on hold until the fulness of the gentles be come in and then all Israel will be saved. (Rom 11:25ff)

.

There is only one gospel.
Gospel means "good news"...
Did Peter know anything of the indwelling Holy Spirit as earnest of salvation until that good news was revealed through Paul?
Did Peter tell his audience of Acts 2 the good news that all one must do to be saved is to believe on the death, burial, and resurrection as revealed through Paul, or did Peter tell his audience the good news of having to first do the work of repenting and water baptism?
Did Joshua and Caleb know the good news of the free gift of salvation as revealed through Paul when they stood at the entrance to the promised land or did they only know the gospel (good news) of armed victory with God leading them? (Num 13:30; 14:9; Ex 34:11 Josh 14:5-14)
Are the present day Jews operating under the good news revealed through Paul or are they operating under the gospel of Zec 12:1-7.

There is but one gospel: God is saviour of sinful humanity.

The gospel is eternal and though has been revealed in full with the Word manifesting in the flesh, man has always placed his faith in God and been obedient to the revealed will of God.
Click to expand...

Again, in all humbleness, I say things that are different, are different.

We will one day be spiritual, and there wil be a physical aspect to this (as the Lord ate, after glorification), but I really don't know the fulness of what is to be.
If this is our eternal state, then is it not far more real than what we see today?

Absolutely. Even as the law was but a shadow, and the temple a shadow, the earth is but a shadow of the glory of heaven and being in God's presence.
Click to expand...

Darrell, I realize our conversations over the last few days are not really where you would wish to take this thread; therefore it is fine with me if you wish to focus more on the study than on replying to my rants....

have a great weekend....and God bless[/QUOTE]

God bless you brother.

We can disagree on things and still be brethren.

What fun would there be if we agreed on everything?

olegig · Feb 22, 2010

Hello again Darrell,

I know where you are coming from on this, but again, spiritual Israel are those who belong to God.
Click to expand...

This maybe an area where we differ.
I see spiritual Israel as that part of Israel who have believed on the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
They are in the Body of Christ, the Bride.
Peter, Ananias, Paul, Timothy would all be examples of those believers who were once of physical Israel.
I see spiritual Israel joined with Gentile believers as one, the Church of God; however there are still Jews and Gentiles who are not believers in Jesus Christ as Messiah or Saviour.

Concerning those who "belong to God" I would place the above group who are all of the Bride, and I would also place the remnant of physical Israel whom God will again deal with after the Rapture of the Church.

Also of those who "belong to God" I would place all the OT saints who died before the blood was shed. John the Baptist refers to himself as a "friend" of the Bridegroom.

[A study of the Jewish wedding customs reveal many different characters and time frames. (It is quiet interesting.)
From this study we can find "spots" or character fills for the various personages from scripture.
Even Jesus' statement that "I go to prepare a place" is part and parcel of the whole wedding custom.
I would also refer to the parable of the marriage feast found in Mt 22.]

Paul says in Rom 11:26 that "all" Israel will be saved.
Do I take that to mean every single individual who was ever born as an Israelite?
No, I take that to mean God has His record of all the 12 tribes and a remnant in His mind of each on earth today so when the time comes there will be ample saved from each tribe to fulfill prophecy and continue into eternity.

Think about this question: does Abraham believe in Jesus Christ? The answer is yes. At this time, he has a better understanding than we do, because he is already with the Lord. But we have a better understanding than he did when he was alive.
Click to expand...

IMO here you are painting with a broad brush in reply to my statement.
My statement concerning Abraham was to show the OT saint did not immediately go to Heaven upon physical death as we do today. (2Cor 5:8)
Therefore the method of salvation has changed and can be viewed as changeable.

Certainly one would agree that every saved person in the Bible is saved only through the blood of and belief in Jesus Christ; but the difference is in how and when it is applied.

Was the OT saint indwelt by the Holy Spirit as earnest of their salvation? I think not...
Was the OT saint said to be placed "in Christ" and Christ "in him"? Again, I think not....
There truely is something different going on here and I feel we also see the difference in the book of Hebrews.
---------------
For some reason the above posted before I was ready.....I must have hit the wrong button.
I will continue in the next post....

olegig · Feb 22, 2010

Darrell,,,cont reply to post 33.....

Abraham was not of the house of Israel, he was a gentile, basically. And I do not put much stock in the "Two House" business, as some do. All of believing Israel are God's.
Click to expand...

Agreed, the Bible calls Abraham a Hebrew and through his concubines he is the father of many.

But the scriptures are very specific that Abraham was the physical father of Jacob who was first called Israel and the physical promises made to Abraham were passed on to Jacob and Isaac.
However the spiritual promises made to Abraham were not relegated to only Israel.

I agree all of believing Israel are God's; but I also feel physical, unbelieving Israel will again be God's in the future for no group has taken their place.

Believers in the Tribulation and Millennial Kingdom will believe on the name of Jesus Christ, for this is God's plan for all men (there is none other name given under heaven...).
Click to expand...

All I can say about the salvation of those during the Tribulation is what I see in scripture and cannot speculate further.
Scripture tells them to not take the mark, keep the commandments, and endure to the end.

Belief during the Millennial Reign will come by sight.

olegig said in previous post:
Second-- Please read the account of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 paying special attention to vs 34.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Do the things of vs 34 sound anything like what we know to be our instructions from God today?
Are not we to teach every man? Does everyone know God?

Again, this time (the M.K.) will be different, reverting to an Old Testament type.
Click to expand...

I don't understand your meaning here.

And please look at Zec 13:3, is that of today when parents should "thrust through" a son who prophesieth (teaches)?

I say again, the scriptures maintain separation between the Jew, gentile, and church of God, and I feel we should as well.

I lean more towards the "middle wall of partition has been broken down", there is neither Jew nor Gentile, man or woman.
I see no separation of true believers.
Click to expand...

And nor do I see separation of true believers. When Paul spoke of the "middle wall of partition" he was referring to believers, the Body in which truly there is neither Jew nor Gentile, man or woman......no argument on that,,,but....

I am not speaking of today, the New Covenant of Jer 31 cannot be of today because of its contents along with further description from Zec.
Please study again the questions I asked above in red concerning the passage from Jer.

To seclude the New Covenant to Israel would also be to seclude the new birth to Israel; the mystery was that gentiles would be included in this
Click to expand...

I don't see how you get from one to the other.
I don't see how the New Covenant of Heb 8 has or says anything about the new birth.
And I don't see where Paul revealed the New Covenant as one of the mysteries.
You will have to develop these with scripture for my understanding.

As a wife, Israel played the harlot. As the bride, we are presented without spot (because of the New Covenant blessings: we are spotless because of Christ's imputed righteousness, and that God will remember no more our sin.
Click to expand...

IMO this is bordering on Replacement Theology to which I do not agree.

There is but one gospel: God is saviour of sinful humanity.
Click to expand...

I will repeat the questions from previous post for your consideration for IMO many of these things must be settled and understood before any attempt at the meat of the book of Hebrews.

Gospel means "good news"...
Did Peter know anything of the indwelling Holy Spirit as earnest of salvation until that good news was revealed through Paul?
Did Peter tell his audience of Acts 2 the good news that all one must do to be saved is to believe on the death, burial, and resurrection as revealed through Paul, or did Peter tell his audience the good news of having to first do the work of repenting and water baptism?
Did Joshua and Caleb know the good news of the free gift of salvation as revealed through Paul when they stood at the entrance to the promised land or did they only know the gospel (good news) of armed victory with God leading them? (Num 13:30; 14:9; Ex 34:11 Josh 14:5-14)
Are the present day Jews operating under the good news revealed through Paul or are they operating under the gospel of Zec 12:1-7.

-------------
Well got to go watch the Olympics........
have a great evening

Darrell C · Feb 22, 2010

olegig said: ↑

Darrell,,,cont reply to post 33.....

Agreed, the Bible calls Abraham a Hebrew and through his concubines he is the father of many.
Click to expand...

As far as I know, there were no Hebrews until after the nation was created, Abraham was a gentile.

But the scriptures are very specific that Abraham was the physical father of Jacob who was first called Israel and the physical promises made to Abraham were passed on to Jacob and Isaac.
However the spiritual promises made to Abraham were not relegated to only Israel.
Click to expand...

I think we already covered this.

I agree all of believing Israel are God's; but I also feel physical, unbelieving Israel will again be God's in the future for no group has taken their place.
Click to expand...

They will. And after they do, they will become God's.

All I can say about the salvation of those during the Tribulation is what I see in scripture and cannot speculate further.
Scripture tells them to not take the mark, keep the commandments, and endure to the end.
Click to expand...

Scripture is silent in many areas, but the whole teaching of the word brings us to conclude things that are not spelled out in bold lettering.

For instance, the gospel that Hebrews 4 states was preached to those in the wilderness was the same gospel that Jesus preached which was the same gospel that Paul preached.

It was more clear as it progressed, but it was the same gospel: God is saviour. Man needs the saviour. This is the way, walk ye in it.

Belief during the Millennial Reign will come by sight.
Click to expand...

It will come by God's grace. It is He who separates the sinner unto Himself. If Man rejected Jesus when He walked among them, they will reject Him at this time as well.

The death, burial, and resurrection was barely mentioned during His ministry. That they didn't get it was evident, because the Lord had to instruct them after the Cross concerning what His death meant.

John 12:16-These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

Much of His work was not understood by them until after the Cross.

Acts 11:16-Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Again, though these things are not spelled out clearly, we can see that Christ's death for the sin of the world is the major theme of the bible.

It is the only way of salvation for the saints of all ages.

Those who died before the Cross were not made perfect without us (they had to wait until the Cross before entering the presence of the Lord, because their sin debt had not been paid).

olegig said in previous post:
Second-- Please read the account of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 paying special attention to vs 34.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Do the things of vs 34 sound anything like what we know to be our instructions from God today?
Are not we to teach every man? Does everyone know God?
Click to expand...

I thought I answered this. I'll try again.

The Covenants compliment each other, culminating in the New Covenant. This passage refers to the Millennial Kingdom, which is when Israel (now unbelieving, in the M.K. believing) will partake of the New Covenant blessings.

I don't understand your meaning here.
Click to expand...

In the Millennial Kingdom, there will be a tabernacle/temple. There will be celebration of feasts and ritual.

These belong to Israel, but those of other nations will also come (i.e. Zech. 14:16-21).

I see these ceremonial rituals as memorial as communion is memorial in our day...they have no value for salvation itself. Justas the Law of God is still Holy, but one cannot be saved by the Law.

And please look at Zec 13:3, is that of today when parents should "thrust through" a son who prophesieth (teaches)?
Click to expand...

This is not a part of the New Covenant blessing but a condition during this time: the false prophet fearful of being discovered...this is definitely not for this day and age.

I say again, the scriptures maintain separation between the Jew, gentile, and church of God, and I feel we should as well.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid we will disagree on this point.

There was no separation in redemption when God brought the Israelites out of Egypt...for He redeemed the mixed multitude as well.

How about Ruth?

In His promise to Abraham, he said "And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed." (Acts 3:25)

Hi Olegig, I'm afraid I deleted your quote...It had to do with the New Covenant not being for today, to which I will answer, but I will post this now, because the last one was too long.

I will come back to this.
Click to expand...

Darrell C · Feb 22, 2010

Hi Brother Olegig!

Having a good time here. By this time on other forums my salvation would already be in question for disagreeing with someone's theology.

God bless you brother, we'll work this thing out.

In reply to the new birth, New Covenant and their correlation, follow closely.

This is something that most do not recognize and it is something we should understand.

The claim that we are not under the New Covenant flies in the face of salvation on a very basic level...if we (the Body of Christ)are not under the New Covenant, we are not born again.

Let me see if I can develop this in a way that is understandable.

John 3
1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Okay, we understand this passage for the most part. There is some debate about the water and the spirit in this passage, but most accept it to mean "the washing of the water of the word", not when "water breaks"; and the reference to spirit is of course the spiritual renewing of man by both the new spirit and the indwelling presence of God.

In v. 10, the Lord asks, "You don't know what I refer to?"

What should Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, "the" teacher of Israel, have known?

Glad you asked:

20And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

21But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

22Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Forgiveness

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Regeneration

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Indwelling of God and obedience to His word.

28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Though this is given to Israel, we, the body of Christ, enjoy the blessings of this promise already.

Just because Israel as a nation has not been returned to her role as God's witness people, doesn't mean the New Covenant has not been enacted.

It has replaced the Covenant of Law. Jews are still not saved by the law, any more than they were in Jesus' day.

There is only one New Covenant.

If it is not for us today, then these blessings are not for us today.

God bless.

olegig · Feb 22, 2010

Hello Darrell,

As far as I know, there were no Hebrews until after the nation was created, Abraham was a gentile.
Click to expand...

Genesis 14:13 (King James Version)
13And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.

All I can say about the salvation of those during the Tribulation is what I see in scripture and cannot speculate further.
Scripture tells them to not take the mark, keep the commandments, and endure to the end.

Scripture is silent in many areas, but the whole teaching of the word brings us to conclude things that are not spelled out in bold lettering.
Click to expand...

Yes, but when scripture does speak, are not we to listen?
Passage such as Rev 6:9; 12:17; 14:12; 15:2 all give instruction to those on earth during the Tribulation and none of them say a thing about believing in the death, burial, or resurrection.
They are predominately centered around the same things the OT saints were instructed to do-keep the commandments- with the addition of Jesus.
This is very similar to the book of Hebrews where we find predominate Jewish actions with the addition of Jesus.
But none of these instructions have anything remotely resembling the flavor of the message Paul gave.

Also if one looks to the prophetic instructions for the future Tribulation in the gospel of Matthew, one finds the instructions to endure to the end, certainly not a Pauline message.
The sermon on the mount of Mt 5 is virtually the constitution for the Tribulation and following Millennial Kingdom.
The parable of the virgins (plural, not the Church which is always singular) found in Mt 25 has works involved for those on earth during the Tribulation while waiting for the return of the Bridegroom.
These are not the bride; but yet again members of the wedding party and there is nothing Pauline about their actions.

Granted, scripture is silent in some areas; but the area concerning Tribulation salvation is not one of them.

For instance, the gospel that Hebrews 4 states was preached to those in the wilderness was the same gospel that Jesus preached which was the same gospel that Paul preached.

It was more clear as it progressed, but it was the same gospel: God is saviour. Man needs the saviour. This is the way, walk ye in it.
Click to expand...

Here again, you are painting with a broad brush.
I feel to develop this, you should provide the scriptures that show what was told to those individuals mentioned and their reaction.

And here again, I would example Peter in Acts 2:38....
Did Peter tell his audience of the death, burial, and resurrection and the power thereof,,,or did Peter retell the Kingdom Gospel that Jesus Christ was truly the promised Messiah?

Belief during the Millennial Reign will come by sight.

It will come by God's grace.
Click to expand...

Once again, a broad brush for everything comes by and through the Grace of God; but if we are to go on to the meatier things of scripture, we have to be more specific.

Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; but did Noah say well I believe in the death, burial, and resurrection so therefore I will just here and drown and go to Heaven?
No, Noah did exactly what God told him to do, and that is what saved Noah.

Ponder this:
During the MR will the gospel be the death, burial, and resurrection; or will it be to go up to Jerusalem and look upon the King and believe through sight who He is?

The death, burial, and resurrection was barely mentioned during His ministry. That they didn't get it was evident, because the Lord had to instruct them after the Cross concerning what His death meant.
Click to expand...

Agreed, and they knew nothing of the power of the resurrection and Peter even admitted so in 2Pet 3:16-17.

All the disciples gleaned from Jesus' earthly ministry was that He truly was the Messiah, the promised fulfillment of the OT prophecies of a King. And all the disciples were looking for was the Kingdom as shown by Acts 1:6.
This is why Peter felt it urgent to fill the 12th place because the Lord had told them they would set in judgement over the 12 tribes.

Much of His work was not understood by them until after the Cross.
Click to expand...

My point exactly!!!!
And it was not understood by them or anyone else until it was revealed through the apostle Paul by the teaching of the Gospel of Grace, not the Kingdom Gospel.

All the disciples knew was the "good news" that the King had come and that He is returning.
It was from the revelations through Paul that they learned of the truly awesome power of God unto salvation, not just a Kingship. (Rom 1:16)

Again, though these things are not spelled out clearly, we can see that Christ's death for the sin of the world is the major theme of the bible.
Click to expand...

It certainly might be considered the most important theme so far as you and I are concerned; but if one would count up all the passages, one will find far more passages dealing with the Second Coming than any other topic.

The main theme of the Bible is Christ reclaiming His creation and I am sure glad He chose to make a way for me to go along on the ride. :smilewinkgrin:

I thought I answered this. I'll try again.

The Covenants compliment each other, culminating in the New Covenant. This passage refers to the Millennial Kingdom, which is when Israel (now unbelieving, in the M.K. believing) will partake of the New Covenant blessings.
Click to expand...

IMO to fully answer this and show the Church today is under the New Covenant of Heb 8 one must show how the description of the Covenant found in Jer 31 has application to members of the Body today.
Jer 31:34 starts out by saying they shall teach no more his neighbor......
Does not sound like the instructions found in the Pauline epistles to the Church to me, does it you?
Does everyone "all" know the Lord today?

Please, we cannot just place the Church under the New Covenant of Heb 8 for no reason. Do you have any scriptural proof that this Covenant is for the Church today?

IMO this all has application concerning the doctrinal truths found in the book of Hebrews.

I say again, the scriptures maintain separation between the Jew, gentile, and church of God, and I feel we should as well.

I'm afraid we will disagree on this point.
Click to expand...

Here you still are not addressing my point.

I am not saying there is separation among those who believe in and love the Lord.
I am saying the Bible maintains separation between the Jew who has not accepted the First Advent, the gentile who is heathen, and the believers.

Just as the color commentator mentioned earlier must know the position of each player to properly call the game; we too must maintain the separation for each group is addressed and has a place in unfulfilled prophecy as exampled by the sheep and goat nations in Mt 25:31ff.

Well, think I will go for now....later my friend

Darrell C · Feb 22, 2010

Hi Olegig, another round of pong!

olegig said: ↑

Hello Darrell,

[

I]Genesis 14:13 (King James Version)
13And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.[/I]
Click to expand...

Yep, forgot about the descendants of Eber.

All I can say about the salvation of those during the Tribulation is what I see in scripture and cannot speculate further.
Scripture tells them to not take the mark, keep the commandments, and endure to the end.
Click to expand...

Revelation 12:11 (King James Version)

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Again, all scripture points to the same gospel...we are not told this, but you can see how the tribulation saints are saved. Same as you and I.

Yes, but when scripture does speak, are not we to listen?
Passage such as Rev 6:9; 12:17; 14:12; 15:2 all give instruction to those on earth during the Tribulation and none of them say a thing about believing in the death, burial, or resurrection.
They are predominately centered around the same things the OT saints were instructed to do-keep the commandments- with the addition of Jesus.
This is very similar to the book of Hebrews where we find predominate Jewish actions with the addition of Jesus.
But none of these instructions have anything remotely resembling the flavor of the message Paul gave.
Click to expand...

The addition of Jesus?

Revelation 19:10 (King James Version)

10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy

Also if one looks to the prophetic instructions for the future Tribulation in the gospel of Matthew, one finds the instructions to endure to the end, certainly not a Pauline message.
The sermon on the mount of Mt 5 is virtually the constitution for the Tribulation and following Millennial Kingdom.
The parable of the virgins (plural, not the Church which is always singular) found in Mt 25 has works involved for those on earth during the Tribulation while waiting for the return of the Bridegroom.
These are not the bride; but yet again members of the wedding party and there is nothing Pauline about their actions.
Click to expand...

That doesn't change the fact that they have the same gospel, and are saved like as we.

Here again, you are painting with a broad brush.
I feel to develop this, you should provide the scriptures that show what was told to those individuals mentioned and their reaction.
Click to expand...

Scripture provides many pictures and prophecies of God's redemption and salvation:

Moses, Joseph, the brass serpent, etc.

As revelation progressed and clarified in the Person of Jesus and His death on the Cross, those who put faith in God do so through the person of Jesus.

If this means so much to you (that Israel and the Church are so separate), perhaps you should start a thread expressing your position.

And here again, I would example Peter in Acts 2:38....
Did Peter tell his audience of the death, burial, and resurrection and the power thereof,,,or did Peter retell the Kingdom Gospel that Jesus Christ was truly the promised Messiah?
Click to expand...

All those present at the time would have clearly known what Peter meant when he said to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for forgiveness of sins.

It is the same gospel.

Belief during the Millennial Reign will come by sight.

Once again, a broad brush for everything comes by and through the Grace of God; but if we are to go on to the meatier things of scripture, we have to be more specific.
Click to expand...

I cannot be more specific than I already have. Its fine if you want to hold to this doctrine, but you will have to do better than you have if you want to convince me of two groups of redeemed.

Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; but did Noah say well I believe in the death, burial, and resurrection so therefore I will just here and drown and go to Heaven?
No, Noah did exactly what God told him to do, and that is what saved Noah.
Click to expand...

Noah (again) was saved by grace through faith.

Hebrews 11:7-By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Ponder this:
During the MR will the gospel be the death, burial, and resurrection; or will it be to go up to Jerusalem and look upon the King and believe through sight who He is?
Click to expand...

Without a doubt, they will all overcome by the blood of the lamb.

Agreed, and they knew nothing of the power of the resurrection and Peter even admitted so in 2Pet 3:16-17.

All the disciples gleaned from Jesus' earthly ministry was that He truly was the Messiah, the promised fulfillment of the OT prophecies of a King. And all the disciples were looking for was the Kingdom as shown by Acts 1:6.
This is why Peter felt it urgent to fill the 12th place because the Lord had told them they would set in judgement over the 12 tribes.
Click to expand...

Had they truly believed (which they couldn't, lacking the Spirit) they wouldn't have gone back to fishing.

My point exactly!!!!
And it was not understood by them or anyone else until it was revealed through the apostle Paul by the teaching of the Gospel of Grace, not the Kingdom Gospel.

All the disciples knew was the "good news" that the King had come and that He is returning.
It was from the revelations through Paul that they learned of the truly awesome power of God unto salvation, not just a Kingship. (Rom 1:16)
Click to expand...

It was through the giving of the Comforter that they understood. This was prior to Paul's salvation.

Here you still are not addressing my point.
Click to expand...

It was addressed, but I guess you didn't understand it. I will try again as we go through Hebrews in this study on perfection.

By the way, have you looked at the passages yet?

I am not saying there is separation among those who believe in and love the Lord.
I am saying the Bible maintains separation between the Jew who has not accepted the First Advent, the gentile who is heathen, and the believers.

Just as the color commentator mentioned earlier must know the position of each player to properly call the game; we too must maintain the separation for each group is addressed and has a place in unfulfilled prophecy as exampled by the sheep and goat nations in Mt 25:31ff.

Well, think I will go for now....later my friend
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I agree with the separation as stated above. It is when you try to separate believers...from any age: this is where I disagree.

In the eternal state there will be believers of all time.

I say again, if the New Covenant is not for today, then we are not born again.

There is only one New Covenant, and though it is not fulfilled in full, it is in operation today.

Just do me a favor, brother, look at the passages concerning perfection, and share your thoughts on those.

God bless.

Darrell C · Feb 22, 2010

Perfection in Sacrifice

Hi to all,

Our next passage will be one of my favorites.

Please spend some time going over this passage, the truths within will fill the Christian with joy!

Hebrews 10:1-26 (King James Version)

Hebrews 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21And having an high priest over the house of God;

22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

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