Perfection

Then I must ask, have you been sanctified by Jesus Christ Billy?

BTW [those who persevere to the end] would not be argued by the ESIC camp. All those sanctified by Jesus are those who persevere until the end. God has promissed.

1Th 5:24Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].

:jesus:

 

I don't believe what I posted constitutes a "personal attack". Report it to the moderators and if they agree they will notify me and I will repent and be more careful.

Really none of us should be making a personal interpretation of scripture. One should follow hermeneutics and allow the bible to interpret itself. When one plucks verses out of context and abandons the full counsel of God's word they are opening themselves up for contradictions and misapplications of God's word.

:jesus:

ps. I appologize if my post offended you personally. I am sure you are very capable of studying the scriptures, however, we must all test our own reasoning as to why we believe as we believe.

As I studied this issue over several years before deciding on ESIC being eternal life I kept coming back to my own life and realized that I am nothing more than a sinner saved by grace. I cannot even explain to you why I continue to believe in Jesus Christ accept for the fact that He is always right there in my spirit and I cannot escape Him. Oh I tried in my youth especially. I marched right on into sins that He was convicting me of should not be. I've simply never been able to stop believing.

Can you stop believing Billy? Go ahead and try it for a day or so and see if you can. Try it for just a minute ot two. Let me know how you make out.

:jesus:

 

A book cannot interpret itself - at least not in this universe.

Well, upon who’s interpretive authority should we then rely?

Agreed! No need to apologize.

That goes to my point... until we "finish the race" we cannot know for sure whether or not we shall fall away and stay that way - we cannot see the future.

Believing is not the same as living the faith and avoiding serious sin. In that sense, even Satan and his demons believe.

‡ Peace ‡

 

Rev 12:3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

What is your interpretation of the dragon and if you have one how did you come up with it?

Scripture interprets scripture. We are not speaking of a "book" here. We are speaking of God's word to man revealed to us through 66 seperate Spirit led writings by some forty different apostles or prophets chosen by God.

Here is another example for you,

Isa 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Of whom does the prophet speak of? If you know, how is it you know? Did you interpret it for yourself, a vision maybe, an angel from heaven helped you, maybe the Spirit of God spoke to you, or did you counsel other scripture?

Thus, scripture interprets scripture. If you have a doctrinal position and it is based on a particular verse or verses then you must explain how you came to the conclusion you did concerning the verses you present at the exclusion of any other interpretation. This rule is Biblical hermeneutics.

Here is a definition of how it works http://www.forananswer.org/Top_General/Hermeneutics.htm

Are you saying you do not know if Christ has given you eternal life?

Scripture defines believing as living the faith. James made it clear that just saying you believe does not save. If on etruly believes one will live by faith in Jesus Christ and finish the race.

1Cr 3:15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

As for sin (transgressions of the law);

Rom 10:4
For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.



The law has no power to condemn those who are in Christ Jesus. Jesus paid my pardon forever. All past, present or future sins. All paid in full. I have been purchased by Him and He owns me. This is why I cannot stop believing.

Have you ever tried to stop? Have any luck at it?

Oh, and don't forget my question;

:jesus:

 

I tend toward the Preterist view which holds that most or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the End Times refer to events which have already happened in the first century after Christ's birth.

So in my view, the Whore is Jerusalem and the Beast is Rome (with the ten horns as vassal states). The alliance between the two in persecuting Christians broke down in A.D. 66–70, when Rome and its allied forces conquered Israel and then destroyed, sacked, and burned Jerusalem, just as Jesus prophesied (Luke 21:5–24).

If scripture interprets itself, why do we have so many different interpretations?

I know the same way that you know - and that is by my own interpretation or the interpretation of others.

I think we should heed Peter’s warning about Paul’s letters: "There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures" (2 Pet. 3:16).

Some things are hard to understand, but not everything is.

I understand hermeneutics. However, if scripture interprets itself, then one should not need the methodology of hermeneutics. Besides – how do you know that those who developed those tools that “rightly divide” scripture had the correct interpretation of scripture themselves when they worked out that methodology to begin with?

In your source, I noticed the following statement: “We believe that there is only one "right" interpretation of any given Biblical passage - the meaning God intended when He "breathed" His word into the human author. “

I would ask you then, how do they know that they have the correct interpretation of scripture? Is it by the use of “…hermeneutical principles... that we strive to adhere to in the commentaries [an expression of opinion or interpretation] on this website” - principles developed by individuals who themselves held to their own interpretation?

That sounds circular to me...

He has – and it is a free gift (grace). However, I must chose to accept and cooperate with that grace – I must do as he commanded. We have free will in the matter. God forces no one to love and serve him.

Here is what I am saying…
I have been saved, I am being saved, and (provided I persevere) I will be saved.

"been saved" - Ephesians 2:4-5:
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

"being saved" - 1 Corinthians 1:18:
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

"will be saved" - Mark 13:13:
You will be hated by all because of my name. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

I agree – faith without works is dead.

The faith that justifies us is alive and expressed through love (Gal. 5:6), not just intellectual belief or personal trust. In Romans 3:21–23 and 10:4, Paul teaches that Jesus ushered in a new mode of justification—apart from the Mosaic law but not apart from good deeds, which James tells us are essential for justification (Jas. 2:24–26). In fact, Jesus says he will measure our righteousness by how well we have put our faith to work in acts of love for our neighbor (Matt. 25:37–40).

Well, simply believing will not get you into heaven. Scripture is clear about that.

Hebrews 6:10-12
For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do. And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Jeremiah 17:10 (King James Version)
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Revelation 2:23 (King James Version)
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works

Revelation 20:12 (King James Version)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

There are plenty more. However, if I post them I will most assuredly be accused of proof texting.

Ok – we need to define terms here.
What is your definition of sanctification? I believe that becoming Holy is a process – a life long process.

‡ Peace ‡

 

Your post is long so one point at a time.

How does this answer my questions? Please read them and adress each one.

:jesus:

 

I did that in my post - I addressed each point one at a time. You didn't specifiy the length of the post and you didn't seperate your questions out one at a time either.

Peace!

 

I understand that. But back to my questions in this post. Would you answer please?

Here they are,

Here is another example for you,

Isa 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

1) Of whom does the prophet speak of?

2) If you know, how is it you know?

3) Did you interpret it for yourself, a vision maybe, an angel from heaven helped you, maybe the Spirit of God spoke to you, or did you counsel other scripture?

:jesus:

 

Isaiah 9:6 speaks of Jesus the omnipotent God who became a little child, and without violence subdued the world.

a) I know by reading and logically connecting other scripture such as:

Yahweh is both the great God and our Savior. (See Isaiah 41:4, 43:3,11, 44:6,8, 45:21; Hos. 13:4; and Luke 1:47.)

(Heb. 1:8) "But of the Son he says, ‘Thy throne, O God (ho theos, the definite article plus theos), is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom’"

(Titus 2:13) Jesus is not only the God, he is the great God and our Savior.

(John 20:28)."My Lord and My God"

Clearly, there are others as well.

b) By reading the Early Church Fathers (in this case Clement, St. Iræneus, and St. Ignatius) – I believe that the views of these people, who were very close to the apostles themselves, should be looked at as authoritative when there is consensus among them.

c) Consulting various commentaries

d) Using scripture database tools

My answer is "no" to every point except the one regarding scripture (see point #2 above). However, you and I both know that our theological belief systems are heavily influenced by the personal bent of preachers and theologians upon whom we choose to rely, as-well-as by the denominational lenses through which we gaze.


OK - I took the time to answer everyone of your questions in my previous post and I asked you a few as well. Please do me the honor of reading and addressing my answers and questions to you, then we can continue. A little reciprocity is in order here.

Peace!

 

Thank you! This is using scripture to interpret scripture. Something you said could never happen in this universe.

It is good to read former leader's views. However, authorative they are not. They are not apostles and must rely upon the same inspired scriptures that we have to read today. They also needed to search the scriptures to make interpretations of the scriptures. Scripture interpreting scripture.

Excellent tools. However, these commentarians also had to rely upon scripture interpreting scripture as they studied.

Then why do you say scripture cannot interpret scripture? You have shown me that you used scripture to interpret scripture.

Preachers and theologians are very influential and this is why James gives a warning to those who desire to hold these positions. These will receive a greater condemnation for what they taught to those masses who generally live by "well, the preacher said so".

Personally, I check every sermon or commentary against the scriptures using bible hermeneutics. This is just me and in reality few parishioners bother to take the time and simply just follow what the preacher or denomination teaches.

I have learned under two pastors in the past 13 years and most of what they taught I believed was dead on with scripture as I examined what they had said. A couple of things I did not agree with.

If our denomination for some odd reason decided to teach a faith plus works gospel I would have to leave that church for bible hermenuetics shows me that it is by grace ye have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

God has given us preachers and teachers who are to study the scriptures and lead and teach the flock. These are not infallible when it comes to what they say the scripture means. In most cases the hearer has the word to read and study for themselves, also the believer has the Holy Spirit whom speaks to the spirit as truths are taught.

For example, I have heard a preacher preach how a woman wearing pants is sin and he went down through several scriptures which he believed proved his position. As I followed along through the scriptures the Spirit did not convict me that he was on target with truth. In fact, my spirit was telling me that he was preaching a personal preference and it was not a truth from God. He would say the opposite I suppose, that the Spirit has convicted him it was truth. These kinds of things will be settled at the judgment seat of Christ.

Bottom line though is, everyone must use scripture to interpret scripture. Which was my point from the beginning.

:jesus:

 

I didn't miss it at all. Sanctification is the process of being made Holy - it is a prcoess not a one-time event.

But that is precisely the seminal point that you were making and the one to which I responded. You cannot discuss santification if you already hold to the premise that salvation cannot be forfieted by an individual.

Of course our hope is in Christ and I never said that it wasn't. If we fight the good fight he will keep his promise. However, God created us in his image - which includes the propety of free will. Adam and Eve had it - Satan and one third of the angels had it - and we have it. No one can snatch our salvation from us. No human can - Satan cannot - no one can - except ourselves. Should we choose to, we can walk away. Scripture is very clear about this.

Recall what was asked of Abraham. He cooperated - had he not, well -- you can guess the outcome for us all.

Yes - He will honor his promise if we continue to accept His grace. However, God will never force us to love and serve him. If that were the case, then hell would be a very empty place.

Peace!

 

Not at all - I said that scripture cannot interpret itself. That was your claim - not mine. If you wish to amend that statement to say that "we use scripture to interpret scripture" then I would agree with you.

Scripture CANNOT interpret scripture. THEY were using scripture and Tradition from the apostles to interpret scripture. You cannot lay the bible down on a table then stand back and wait for it to interpret itself.

Scripture cannot interpret itself - it takes a PERSON READING AND STUDYING IT for the interpretation to take place!!! Why do continue to personify the bible? Is it inspired? YES! Is it authoritative? Yes!

And there is the operative word... "I" used scripture to interpret scripture. However, scripture can no more interpret itself than my car can drive itself.

Well, you might need to re-examine your hermeneutical methods because scripture also show the following:

Jeremiah 17:10 (King James Version)
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Revelation 2:23 (King James Version)
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 20:12 (King James Version)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Of course there is the "sheep and the goats" in Matthew 25:31-46 as-well-as many other places in scripture indicating works as seminal to salvation.

True - everyone should use scripture to interpret scripture, but scripture is incapable of interpreting itself!

Peace!

 

I thought that your premise was limited to Hebrews...

Peace!

 

Oh boy, ok Billy......bye now.....:wavey:.....God bless you in your using scripture to interpret scripture. Sorry that I confused you there.

:jesus:

 

Words have meaning steaver - I'm not a mind reader. Perhaps you should consider a different phrase to describe what you mean. So, I guess you are going to continue to ignore the questions that I asked of you... Sweet.

Peace!

 

Sorry Billy, I don't have time to persue wild goose chases. My posting time is limited.

:jesus: