Perserverence of the Saints -- is it biblical?

And your disagreement is with Scripture, and therefore God, not with me. Scripture is explicit. </font>[/QUOTE]No, my disagreement is with YOUR INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE, AND YOUR COMPLETE DISREGARD FOR, AND LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF THE MAN THAT GOD CREATED.

No, I do not raise man any higher than God made him, and rest assured that I do not denegrate man as you do! I would never insult God, as you do, by so doing!

 

There is not a lot of interpretation in "All Scripture is God-breathed." Sorry. That's just the way it is.

Likewise there isn't a lot of interpretation in "All are sinners; there is none who do good, not even one. There is none who seek after God; Men are dead in trespasses and sins; the heart is deceitful above all things and desparately wicked." Sorry.

These things are plain statements of Scripture that you are on the wrong side of.

It is insulting to God to say that his Scripture is God-breathed when he says it is. It is insulting to God to deny the plain teaching of his word. That is what you have done.

 

If you think Romans chapter 11 is for the Jews of Israel only. But, Romans 11 is also same describe as John chapter 15 dicuss about the branches. Christ tells us, if we do not abide in Christ, we shall be removed out of it. That mean, we could lose salvation, if we do not abide in Christ.

Abide means to be remain and endure.

Perservence of the Saints teaching by Calvinists. Security salvation teaching by IFB.

I am IFB, I do not agree with Calvinism and IFB teaching on salvation.

I can see warnings from the Bible speak on us either Jew or Gentile about our salvation. It commands us that we must be endure and be abide in Christ, or our salvation might be removed.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

WELL DONE Deafpostrib!

There are those who post here who completely ignore the truth of the Whole scripture because it does not fit what they want to believe. They skim past the warnings through out scripture about losing faith and being cutoff from Salvation. PastorLarry is one of those.

If, as a pastor, he is teaching that from the pulpit, I pity him in Judgement!

 

Scripture teaches both. For that reason, I am an IFB who believes both. When you study all of Scripture it becomes rather clear.

Our salvation depends on Christ, not on us. To suggest that we can lose our salvation is to suggest that we are more powerful than Christ. He said differently. For those who come to him, he assured resurrection in the day. Those who come to him are new creatures and therefore they persevere. Both teachings are true.

 

You say "That still doesn't tell me what Paul is calling them to fear. What does your doctrine allow for the believing Gentiles to fear?”

I do not know of any other way to say it. I am not sure if you are really saying that you disagree, rather than saying I have not told you what I believe the passage is teaching. I earlier said
“For his point is that the Jews, as a nation, were no longer the sole means of the conveyance of salvation to the world. Their unbelief made room for the Gentiles. But, cautions Paul, the Gentiles must not think more highly of themselves then they ought, for God could as easily cut off the Gentiles, just as He did for the Jews.”

And “So Paul is warning the Gentiles about falling into an anti-semitic view, and or conversely the equally serious error of glorying in their position as if they had done something to merit God's favor. Rather than boasting in their status as a Gentile, they need to instead boast of God's graciousness that caused them, a wild olive shoot, to be ever have been grafted into the olive tree to begin with.”

And the commentary I mentioned says basically the same: “The reason Gentile believers have a standing with God is that they have responded to the gospel in faith, the very thing that Israel has failed to do. Paul treats the Gentile element in the church as a unit, addressing it as "you" (singular--Gr. su). This should not be understood on an individual basis as though Paul were questioning their personal salvation. The matter in hand is the current Gentile prominence in the church made possible by the rejection of the gospel on the part of the nation of Israel as a whole. Let Gentile Christians beware. Their predominance in the Christian community may not last!” (Expositors)

If this doesn’t explain what I believe the passage to be saying, I doubt anything I say will.

Next you say “So, you are pretty much saying what sets these two passages apart is the specific mentioning of Jacob and Esau?”

And then you go on to explain the typical corporate election understanding of the passage. I am a bit frustrated that you seemed to ignore the inclusion of Moses and Pharaoh in my explanation of my understanding of the passage. That is to say, my understanding is not based solely on the twins, though I do think that Paul is using them as an illustration of individuals, and not nations only. For instance, Paul talks about how God had made his decision prior to the twins having ever done anything right or wrong. Rom 9:10-11 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, NASU This hardly to makes sense if one were to restrict the passage to a discussion of nations. Nor do I think it makes sense to speak in terms of nations when Paul says Rom 9:12-13 THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." 13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." NASU (caps not shouting, NT quotation of the OT) Is God saying that one nation is older than another? In the OT passage was not God speaking specifically to individuals when He says Mal 1:2-3 "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob; 3 but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness." NASU

I think that Paul goes on to mention Pharaoh and Moses as 2 individuals God chose to typify His complete sovereignty over individuals, it seems to me, anyway, that thisd puts to rest the idea that Ro 9 has to be referring to nations. Especially given Paul's anticipating of objections, it seems idividuals are in mind, for again, I do not think the objections would have been raised had nations been in view. Look again at the passage, paying close attention to the objections, and remember, caps are OT quotations:
Rom 9:14-24 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, " I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, " Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. NASU

So God's hardening of Pharaoh shows God's sovereign control over the destiny of individuals, as well as nations. I do not see how one could ever speak in terms of nations without also including the fact that it is individuals who make up those nations.

Blessings

 

Scripture teaches both. For that reason, I am an IFB who believes both. When you study all of Scripture it becomes rather clear.

Our salvation depends on Christ, not on us. To suggest that we can lose our salvation is to suggest that we are more powerful than Christ. He said differently. For those who come to him, he assured resurrection in the day. Those who come to him are new creatures and therefore they persevere. Both teachings are true. </font>[/QUOTE]Scriptures also address "FALLING AWAY", AND LOSING ONE'S SALVATION. In order to "fall away" one must have been part of something, and in order to lose something one must have at one time had it or believed it. So, if one can stop believing in the Christ, and because man can change his persuasion, on can stop believing. Therefore, one can lose their faith resulting in loss of Eternal Life.

That has nothing to do with the strength or might of God, or Jesus Christ. It is everything to do with man! You know, the creature that disobeyed God in the Garden, and has been disobeying ever since?

 

Yelsew,


Luk 8:13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

They received the word by faith.. but did not hold on to through persecution.. they failed to hold on to before the realization of proof was revealed to them. They had the word yet didn’t have the corresponding understanding to bring to their realization of knowledge what the word actually meant.

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

(failed to rely upon the power of their Christ)

Again they held the word as it was received by faith yet without revelation or proof that what they heard was real and true to themselves. They had no correlation that the wisdom that they once held had corresponding proof of reality.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Here we read that saints that are called to be vessels of mercy are preserved and designated as continuing to the end of their faith. As well as those saints designated to be vessels of wrath falling away when their faith is proven to be lacking. They fall away from the teaching of the holy spirit. Losing belief of wisdom as well as no opportunity to receive the corresponding understanding.
All they have is a manmade literal understanding of the bible and follow man made laws to please their God. It is not that they accidentally fall away. They are predetermined for lack of faith.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen


They only understand what they can afterwards they fail to hold the truth of God by faith. After failing to couple the understanding with the received word. Their man made understanding only allows them a partial view of God. His nature and plans for his creation. He can only now imagine who their God is and his plans through their darkened hearts.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Gods is always in control. He already has choosen who is the vessels of mercy as well as vessels of wrath.

So if God chooses whom will be saved. Who will be vessels of mercy as well as vessels of wrath.

Do you think he will hold those who are chosen in their respective roles until they fulfill their planned purposes?

Me2

 

Skandelon,

while the law becomes the new environment of both vessels of wrath and of mercy.

we cannot make spiritual assumptions until they both enter into the child stages and begin to express signs of regression or advancement concerning their faith and also their attributes that the Holy spirit teaches. (love,forgiveness)

this is where we discover wether the new spirit within the child is ready to emerge and overtake the followers will and mindset or the opposite occurs and the follower regresses back to their original carnal mindset and fails to accept Gods truth by faith.

(yet the seed is still "within" them ???.)

and they also still desire to please God, yet by their own carnality. their only alternative is to use the written law (10 commandments).

what has occurred? some followers refuses to allow the seed to overtake their will. they are witheld from the reality of recognizing the existence of the seed that is within them. their mind is veiled from the truth.


even if the seed is within the carnal follower.
Yet "unborn" or unrealized by its possessor
can they still be "saved" in their future. or will God once and for all remove his seed that he Gives to the disobedient child.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

this is very relative here.

the follower who denies that the new spirit has become a living part within them is lacking in understanding and has their eyes and ears veiled from this truth. the seed is within all Gods followers. yet the vessels of wrath have their eyes veiled from this truth. while the vessels of mercy fully acknowledge this reality.

when we referr to vessels of mercy professing that Jesus spirit is "within them".
are we not professing that this new spirit is "within us" and is ours forever?
are we actually acknowledging that this new spirit has replaced our old and cursed spirit?

Do you think God our Father will remove our new spirit if we sin? or in your words.."fall away"?
(signed and sealed..OSAS.. )

so if the vessels of wrath have the selfsame "seed" yet not realized. shouldnt the vessels of mercy have compassion towards them in that the same spirit resides within them yet unrealized.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Me2

 

The Context of Romans 11 begins at Romans 9:1 and continues through Romans 11:36. Paul is addressing the place of Israel.

So it is important to view Romans 11 from the perspective that Paul has in explaining to the Romans, the role and rightful place of Israel. To look at it from a strict gentile point of view could lead one to wrong conclusions.

Remember, Paul is an Israeli, and he speaks from that position as all the Apostles do!

 

Pruning!