Perserverence of the Saints -- is it biblical?

What one does to trees, rose bushes, etc. to keep them producing. Those branches that do not produce are pruned from the trunk and usually thown on a fire to be reduced to ashes, especially if diseased.

 

NO FEAR, so long as they have FAITH! So God's work is that we his creation have FAITH in His SON Jesus.

While we retain our FAITH, HE retains us, when we lose our FAITH, He is no longer obligated to retain us.

If we do not produce the Fruits of FAITH, He lops us off the Vine. If we do not "broadcast" our faith in a manner that entices others to seek HIM, we are NOT doing the Work of the FATHER!

 

wow, this is so interesting in that God produces two "preachers" to cast his seed.

those who demand people do
and
those who request people to stop doing.

if faith is mine before I am aproached with salvation. I am increasing what i already have. thus working.

if faith is something i receive outside myself after Im aproached with salvation. Im receiving something freely. thus no work.

if persevering is shoring up what is something I produce it is further work.
If persevering is resting while the faith of another is working for me. I am resting.

good works is God working for me.
while carnal works is something I do for God.

the Good news of God is that man must Stop working.

not allowing man to redefine who is and who isnt working.

perseverance biblically is allowing the wisdom of God to become reality to its holder. waiting on God to deliver the understanding to the wisdom held by faith.

such as the wisdom of God states that Jesus has been resurrected from death into heaven. without understanding or proof.it is only an idea to its hearer. words.
we must wait for the understanding to be given. the proof to accomodate the idea. together combined God is creating reality and knowledge to the hearer.

and..

"fear" can be interpreting as "perceiving in awe or in humility before a greater influence".

 

when we fear something. it catches our attention. we give it power. (power to catch our attention)

the bible states to "fear" God instead of things that draw your attention away from God.

be not highminded, but fear.

be not prideful, but humbled.

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

the short answer...

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

Do you see that there is two choices. law and faith. Paul is using israel which represents those who lived by law without faith. as a reminder to gentiles to be sure of their own faith that they follow that it is of God and not of self. that following the law without the spirit is of works and can potentially cause one to become reprobate also.as the israel has become..

if they forsake the faith. God can possibly break off their branch. yet he goes further to explain why they were broken off. and the additon of hope that those broken off will be again be added back into Gods covenant.

and the long one...

Israel was given the law. they followed a list of rules written by hand. unfortunately the curse still exist even if the law was kept perfectly.

we find that israel can only be saved by actually receiving the spirit of Gods propitiation within them.. Yet the spirit wasnt prepared for them as of the time of the presentation of the law.

they died without receiving the spirit. they died while following the law without the ACTUAL spirit within them.

at the arrival of the New Covenant with the Gentiles. we also as the jews, go through following the law , yet with a difference. we also receive the spirit.

jesus joined the law with his spirit. we receive this upon intial salvation. we dont ask for it. we dont repent of not asking for it. we receive it without repentence. we get this because God chooses us to receive it.

how do we know we have this seed?.
HE (within us) desires to return back to his father!. he searches to return back to Gods kingdom.
yet we are in this state of death and sin. and the law that we have received is at enmity with our flesh and its carnal lifestyle descisions

the laws purpose is to kill the works of our old carnal self. (our mindset concerning our control and nature of how we conclude our choices.)

yet as we learn of God. We receive truth by faith. an idea within us. from Gods word, witnesses, etc.

we hold these truths by faith. the faith of the seed within us. (the truth this seed knows as reality). yet to us as individuals. these truths are being revealed gradually. we receive the idea and now we must require proof. tangible proof that this word of wisdom given us is real and true.

as we hold this truth by faith. we are persecuted from outside..the world (freinds/system). we are buffetted from the inside. the devil, as well as our old past lifestlye choices, the flesh. they all attempt to compete with the validity of this new truth held by faith...

until we receive a revelation of proof concerning this word given to us by God. we must hold it by faith under the humility and awe before God that he is telling us the truth. that he loves us and desires to take care for us and that he will fulfill his promise to reveal himself through the revelation of this word of truth.

we wait and fear God. in humility we hold to the truth by faith.. awaiting the understanding. to complete the truth into knowledge of God

the gentiles were told to fear God. as they hold the truth of the ideas presented until they receive the revelation that the word they hold by faith in fear will conclude as they receive the understanding to allow them to understand this revelation...even this this mystery.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

their sins..israels sins. of following the law without having the spirit within them.

just like today. people follow the law without the knowledge of the presence of Christ within them.
as well as those who are following God by faith.

the same two groups God chooses to oppose each other.


this story of Paul concerning the examples of the jews and gentiles is an absolute principle. it is the "law of the firstborn".

the firstborn dying for those less fortunate and in need.

the gentiles were chosen to be the body of the head. Gods firstborn from the dead. and it is their responsibility to dye for all of Gods creation that is less fortunate and lacking. they are chosen to be gods vessels of mercy to show mercy to the vessels of wrath.

this now become the opportunity of the gentiles..the church to sacrifice itself for the salvation of those not yet saved. we are the firstborn also. its body.
where the head goes, so goes the body.

and someday God will call us to sacrifice ourselves for others. to give whatever they need to come to the truth. we are Gods tools for the reconciliation of all of Gods creation.

someday the vessels of wrath will also be revealed to the truth that Christ is also inside them as well.

as Paul arrives at his conclusion..even those who lived by law and works and were not approved and previously not accepted of God. Someday they will be accepted as their eyes and ears are uncovered and they can hear the truth of gods love for them. they will acknowledge the spirit within them an follow the faith of that selfsame spirit to the glory of their new Lord.

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Me2

[ February 09, 2004, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

God chooses who, will be what.

either we rest upon the faith of Christ within us,

or we lay upon the faith of our own understanding of our own imaginations. which is the remnants of our old carnal spirits understandings.

we can be tossed about in the winds of the doctrine of men. Faith in carnal men is cheap. we can actually believe in UFO's or evolution without proof.

can man really believe without proof that God lives inside them? so wheres their proof?

Pro 3:3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
Pro 3:4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

"forsaking the faith" is spoken to those as if they are developing a personality. if you give someone a choice. they feel important and as an individual. God is creating Sons. who believe they are individuals. as if they chose something..

God controls everything. even our choices.

could you consider that every vessel of wrath today actually believes their saved and are enjoying the closest possible relationship they can imagine. and will preach their truth till the cows come home.
and there doing exactly as taught.

unfortunately without the proper faith in the exclusive work of their savior.

now "falling away" for a believer. you would have to specify a little more. consider spiritual babes and children waiting by faith to receive a revelation that they have actually been resurrected from the dead. They are being persecuted and tried. yet until they have successfully overcome their trial and receive the understanding that indeed their spirit within them is their NEW SPIRIT. they will have doubts. we see some succeed and some fail...most fail.
(1 joh 2:12-14)

but when the revelation arrives to those determined to receive it. they graduate into the next level of young men in the faith.
(overcomers)

their assurrance is "within them" that they will never fall away. their assurance being the resurrected spirit of Christ.

How can they. they have a very part of the living God residing within them. their new spirit is eternal. it can never become unrighteous.

so for future reference. if any scripture speaks of falling away or losing something (salvation). the passages are speaking specifically to babes and children having their faith tried as they await the revelation that corresponds to the word of faith they are holding on to.

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.

look a 1 John. the continual mentioning of the title of Christ denotes the passages are specifically written to children. for children cannot enter into the holy of holies and are in need of a christ (mediator).

**

Gods playing both sides of the field, Skandelon.

or else how could we humans be performing so perfectly as planned.

Me2

 

Skandelon,

falling away from this passage means being denied to enter into a personal relationship with a living God.

as it occurred with israel...

as is the possibility that remains with each individual in the gentile nations today.

temporarily

Me2

 

within the ranks of "believing" gentiles are those who are babes and children who are still living by faith and growing. basically believing Jesus as their christ and not fully receiving the revelation that He has been resurrected and become lord in their lives and they themselves saved by evidence of their very own renewed spirit.

they are continuing to live by faith in word only without revelation. these are those who are specifically told to hold on with the "possibility" of falling away or allowing the word of faith within them to escape their grasp.

we do grow truth by truth and doctrine by doctrine on a very specific guideline by holding onto words of wisdom and awaitng the revelation.

yet we also have much bigger questions of faith.

the childs largest revelation to receive is that Christ has been resurrected. our old spirit is judged and is replaced by the spirit of Christ in our real time lives. for some the word of wisdom might make sense. but to realize this for a reality is another feat altogether. accepting Jesus as lord is to deny fully our will. our self control must be fully exstinquished.

imagine anyone mature having to give up full control of their will to another.

this is the hardest thing a human being will ever do in their lifetime.

and God asks us to do just that.

Most people fail to do this. or else we would be seeing multitudes of christians beliveing that Jesus is their Lord in Reality.

It just aint so.

Lets look at this another way. God speaks to us. We simply repeat what he asks us to ask of him. If it is our place to desire to relinquish control of our will to him. He will ask and we will follow his command.

think of never asking by faith for something we will never receive. we will always be prompted to ask for exactly what God is going to give us.

He call some into the roles of being the bride. and all the rest become citizens of heaven.

Me2

 

skandelon,

I know of no web sites currently.

yet heb 6 speaks of the knowledge base of a child level. and 1 john 2: 12-14 identifies child,young man and father. each corresponding to different knowledge bases. also enemies targeted at the believer in each specific level (world,flesh and devil)
between the child and the young man stage is where we receive full revelation of the spirit within and the believer is identified as professing Lord.

as opposed to the child stage professing Jesus as christ only. (sovereignty of the will is the subject matter that must be accepted here.)

the father stage is well,. not fun. for it covers the nature of God. Love. whereas we recognize the love for Gods creation. and our comprehension of loving all, even our enemies.

try word searches as child, young man and father.
overcomer.

like overcomer. in 1 john 2 young men are called overcoming the devil. in revelations John calls the same overcomers those who can hear and see. these have received their bodies via resurrection. these are not children. they are young men.

start a thread...see the responses

Me2

 

Me2,

I have been reading this thread debate about Romans 11 lately.

If osas people think Romans 11 is for the Jews only.

How about John 15:6?

Does John 15:6 apply to every believers?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Pruning! </font>[/QUOTE]In times past, it was explained to me to be a fear of

A. Drifting from the Word. Referring to people that may have appeared to be true believers in Christ, but never really were. This is how Heb. 6:4-8 was explained to me.

B. God's judgement of true believers in this life, in the sense that our sin has natural consequences here and now. Your sin will find you out.

C. The judgement seat of Christ (1 Cor. 3:12-15), when it comes to rewards in heaven.

Verses like this and John 15:6 for me were always subjected to verses like John 10:28-29 and Romans 8:38-39. Then there is also the so-called golden chain of Romans 8:29-30, saying that the group of individuals whom God foreknew and predestined is identical to those who were called, justified, and glorified, and so none could possibly lose their salvation.

Not that I believe any of these to be the case with Romans 11, I'm just throwing some ideas out. Personally, I believe it's better to take warnings like this one seriously and to remain in the true Vine. If we remain in Him, we don't have to worry about the warnings! We don't have to get wrapped up in the obsession with logic and mind games of those who like to twist scripture to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:14-16) and distraction from Christ.

It's better just to live out our relationship with Jesus Christ, than to speculate on how much sin we can get away with.