Perseverance of Saints is.....actually it is Eternal INsecurity

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by vooks, Aug 4, 2015.

  1. vooks

    vooks
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    Here is how,
    According to Calvinism,
    Those who are truly saved will hang on/persevere to the end, and those who fall off were not really saved in the first place.

    This tells me that the most objective test of the authenticity of Christian Faith is death; if you die 'in faith', it was the real deal, else it was fake.

    Now, nobody knows zilch about the future so we don't know those claiming to be saved will fall off next week. They may claim to be elect but nobody knows for sure.

    In short, the much touted 'eternal security' is only proved/confirmed by death, or Christ's return.

    So next time a Calvinist proudly boasts of being elect ( and I have never met any who wasn't ),ask them which tea leaves they read
     
    #1 vooks, Aug 4, 2015
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  2. steaver

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    Are you saying you are not sure you will still be a Christian in the future?
     
  3. vooks

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    If the definition of true faith is the one that endures to the end, then all faith that is yet to endure to the end can't possibly be called true or false because some will endure and some won't . That's Calvinism absurdities for you; in a desperate bid to explain away the implication of the innumerable verses charging us to endure, they minister insecurity/uncertainty.

    The reason there are so many verses calling us to endure is because there is a risk of falling off, not enduring and perishing. Calvinism explains these as not being elect. This means elect can only be called thus upon death if they died in faith!
     
    #3 vooks, Aug 4, 2015
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  4. steaver

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    I don't believe that is a good definition of "true faith".

    But how about you? Do you know for certain that you will always be a Christian? That would be OSAS.
     
  5. Iconoclast

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  6. Revmitchell

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    Mat_24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


    If the above verses are being applied to every Christian in a general sense then they are being misused and taken out of context. Jesus was speaking to the Jews and this is not an admonishment to all Christians in the church age. We need to read the details of that chapter along with before and after. We need to remember that Jesus earthly ministry was to the Lost sheep of Israel and not to the Gentiles. Even Paul preached that the gospel was for the Jew first and then to the Gentile. That of course is speaking of the differences in God's program for Israel and the time of the Gentiles.


    Paul wrote about the need to work out our own salvation:

    Php_2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


    Of course the context of this verse is not about our general salvation as in our regeneration but it is a reference to the continual work of sanctification. We are to be working to be more like Christ, to walk as He walked, to become more Holy. We are to master our sins and intentionally work to be overcomers of them as we work to mirror Christ more and more.

    In none of those verses do we see the context of keeping our salvation else we will lose it.

    I am not trying to make a case for or against the ability to lose one's salvation. I am simply saying that those verses do not speak to the issue either way.
     
  7. vooks

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    I am saved because I believe in Jesus. Should I depart from this faith, I won't saved
     
  8. vooks

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    I have no problem with persevering to the end, I have a problem with the theory that those who do not persevere were not saved at all in the first place.

    This means the true test of salvation is death as anybody before death can fall off and be found to not have been properly saved
     
  9. Iconoclast

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    Is it a theory...or is it taught here;

    19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    here is the teaching described in the 1689 conf.

     
  10. Iconoclast

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    How can someone who is saved....be not saved but lost?

    What were they saved from...if they are then lost?

    You were saved...because of something you did?

    What is salvation?

    You cannot discuss perseverance until we define salvation.
     
  11. annsni

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    So your salvation is based on what you've done?
     
  12. steaver

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    When you talk about "truly saved" you must first define what that means. One must understand "born-again". Being regenerated is God creating a new person inside out. No one having been born of God can undo this. If you believe you can be condemned to hell after becoming a child of God then you will have to declare God sends some of His children to hell. One cannot stop being a child of God once saved. It is a new birth.
     
  13. Jordan Kurecki

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    the scripture says" God which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Christ"

    The scriptures teach that we are in the fathers hand once we believe in Christ, this means we are not holding on to Him, he's holding on to us.

    Vooks if you think you can lose your salvation, then you are not trusting in Christ to save and keep you. If you think you have to do something to keep it then you are no different from those who think they have to work for their salvation.

    Are you trusting in Jesus for salvation, or are you trusting in your ability to keep "trusting"

    Scripture says if we are unfaithful God still abides faithful.

    Repent of your subtle self dependence or you will perish.
     
  14. steaver

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    Very simply and well put.
     
  15. vooks

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    Faith.....it is based on faith
     
  16. vooks

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    You are saved as long as you remain in faith
     
  17. vooks

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    I love human philosophies. Let's try scriptures for a change
    Walk me through 1 Tim 4:1. What do you understand by DEPART FROM FAITH?
     
  18. Jordan Kurecki

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    You are in unbelief of Ph 1:6.

    You are self dependent and self righteous, salvation is of the Lord, not your ability to "remain in faith".
    Your signature is hypocrisy because you are doing the same thing. You are a legalist.


    Vooks, I warn you again one last time, you dishonor Christ by rejecting his promise to never leave or forsake you, repent of trusting yourself and put your dependence on Christ. You have not yet truly believed on Christ as long as you think salvation requires any effort of sustenance on your part.

    Repent or you will go to hell.
     
    #18 Jordan Kurecki, Aug 5, 2015
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  19. vooks

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    Keep your feeble threats to yourself :laugh:
    A simple question;

    Is FAITH IN JESUS that saves works or Grace?

    Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation
     
    #19 vooks, Aug 5, 2015
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  20. steaver

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    If you do not understand born-again, then you are yet in your sins. Christian faith is a know so faith in Christ. It is not a I hope it is true kinda faith. I have a personal knowledge that Jesus Christ is God. How could I ever stop believing in that which I have personal knowledge of being an absolute truth?
     

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