Perseverance of the Saints - denied?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Oct 19, 2006.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    The Bible teaching on "Perseverance of the saints" can be denied in several ways.

    Con--#1. Ignore those texts and claim that they are not part of the real Gospel so anyone paying attention to them must be evil.

    Con--#2. Claim that the negative outcome (fiery hell) predicted by those texts for those that do not persevere - is really "another kind of heaven -- another kind of saved" -- in effect a "Protestant Purgatory".

    Con--#3. Claim that God is just "pretending" -- and would never actually do what He says in the negative examples He gives.


    It can be accepted in several ways as well.

    Pro-#1. Admit to the obvious fact that the Perseverance texts DO point to salvation and those who do not persevere are lost -- but then claim that they were never saved to begin with - so that OSAS is preserved. Try to imagine ways in which the text is only being addressed to the lost.

    Pro-#2. Admit to the obvious fact that Perseverance texts ARE given as messages TO the saved - to the people of God - warning them of the REAL problem of failing to PERSEVERE - to CONTINUE in a saving relationship with Christ.

    Notice that in Pro-#1 the nonsensical point results that those who are lost and always were lost are known as such since they failed to "persevere" in -- being saved??!!

    We have seen a lot of interaction in recent days on this board between those who hold to pro-#1 and Conn--#2

    Thoughts?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. EdSutton

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    OR- we could just admit that these words are found nowhere in Scripture, and for both "Cs" and "As", this is a theological construct, and save time!

    Ed
     
  3. billwald

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    Or we admit there are contridictory statements in the Bible - fat chance of that!
     
  4. av1611jim

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    OR!!!
    You could quit misrepresenting Con# 2.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    Are you partial to Con-2??
     
  6. BobRyan

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    But BOTH Arminian and Calvinist do agree on one thing - the Bible does teach that ONLY those who perservere to the END are ultimately saved. (Unless you are 4-point Calvinist of course)

    Under 5 point (TULIP) Calvinism you can't really know if you're saved today until you know if you will perservere tomorrow.

    In Arminianism you CAN know you are saved today no matter WHAT you choose to do tomorrow.

    So is it true that scripture leaves them "without excuse" for thinking that there is "no such thing as failing to endure"??

    Classic Examples of An Arminian System
    =========================================
    God's Word commands us to Endure. Conditional Results IF we Endure/Perservere

    Matt 10:22
    but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

    Heb 2:1-3
    1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it
    Heb 3:6
    but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
    and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

    Heb 3:12-14
    12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
    13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
    by the deceitfulness of sin.
    14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,



    Heb 10:35-39
    35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
    36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
    37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
    38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
    39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

    1Cor 15:1-2
    1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
    in which also you stand,
    2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

    Rom 11:22
    20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
    22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
    if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
    23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


    Col 1:21-23
    22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
    Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
    23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY
    from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
    and of which I Paul was made a minister.



    Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

    Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
    8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
    Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
    9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.


    Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
    Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
    Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
    who has endured to the end who will be saved."


    2Peter 1:10-11
    8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
    knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
    10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
    you practice these things, you will never stumble;
    11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.




     
  7. BobRyan

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    God's Word giving Real Warning - to Endure/Perservere.

    2Peter 2:20-22
    18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality,
    those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
    19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
    20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
    they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
    21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it,
    to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
    22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "" A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,'' and,
    ""A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.''

    Heb 6:4-8
    4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been
    made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
    5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
    6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify
    to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open same.
    7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also
    tilled, receives a blessing from God;
    8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

    None are so blind as those who WILL not see.




     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    Sorry Brother BobRyan, but if one understands the element of
    Greek Logic called (in Latin probably?) Reducto Absurdum,
    then one will see that both Peter & Paul (an probably Mary
    also :) ) taught Security of the Beleiver AKA: Perservation
    of the Saints, AKA: Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS).

    And these two passage are the PROOF TEXTS for
    Security of the Beleiver AKA: Perservation
    of the Saints, AKA: Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS)
     
  9. genesis 12-15

    genesis 12-15
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    How sad. How tragic. How flawed, to believe that I must persevere in order to be saved. How utterly contrary to scripture. How can anyone continue to struggle in that quicksand? How devastating to the newly born-again babe in Christ, to be told "It is only by your effort that you can continue in God's grace. Christ and the Cross weren't sufficient. Sorry."

    "How will I know that I am not perservering?"

    "You can't know. You'll just have to stand before God one day. He'll let you know."

    How disgusting.
     
  10. Claudia_T

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    it sounds to me like you have to do something...


    2 Peter 1:
    1: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
    2: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
    3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
    4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
    5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
    6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
    7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
    8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
    10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
    11: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
     
  11. dispen4ever

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    Bob Ryan can distort scripture 24/7/365 from now 'til Jesus comes, and it will still be distortion. He and Ellen White simply don't get it. It is all of grace, none of us.
     
  12. Claudia_T

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    Forget about Ellen White, what about what Peter said in the Bible?

    Does this sound like it doesnt matter what we do?

    2Peter 1:
    1: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
    2: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
    3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
    4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
    5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
    6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
    7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
    8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
    10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
    11: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
     
  13. genesis 12-15

    genesis 12-15
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    Please point out one verse in your reference which proclaims that I must perservere
    in order to gain or retain eternal life. I promise you, you won't find it.
     
    #13 genesis 12-15, Oct 21, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 21, 2006
  14. Ed Edwards

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    We perservere because we are saved;
    NOT 'we are saved because we perservere'.

    Jesus did/does the plerservering!!!
     
  15. dispen4ever

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    I think we could take all of Bob Ryan's scripture references, change them from the conditional quality he uses in applying them, to just the opposite. Where he questions the validity of OSAS, the scriptures he quotes attest to its truth. It's like conversation. In conversation, the tone of voice, the inflection, can change the meaning entirely. In the written Word, black ink on white paper, one discerns the meaning, the truth of each reference, spiritually.

    When that fails, when readers fail to understand that, we get 300,000 denominations, along with a sizeable group of modern-day prophets who trot out their "new revelation." In the final analysis, the church of Jesus Christ is to be one in Him. That isn't going to happen when readers of scripture use their own intelligence to sort it all out, rather than the spiritual discernment offered by Christ.

    :jesus: paid it all, all to Him I owe, sin had left a crimson stain, He washed it white as snow.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    Spelling correction:

     
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: How about this text? Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
    23 IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: We do not persevere on the account of our salvation. Perseverance is not an automatic result of coming to faith in Christ. We are admonished to continue in the faith in order to be found in Him in the last day. “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;”

    Of a truth, no one will persevere without the aide of the Holy Spirit, but just the same, perseverance involves voluntary acts of the will, formed intents, in agreement with obedience as required by salvations demands. We will not persevere ‘for the sake of our obedience,’ but neither will we persevere ‘apart from’ our willful obedience.

    The shed blood of Christ is the only grounds of salvation and perseverance, but that in no way excludes our willful obedience from being required. That which God requires out of us for salvation or perseverance is always thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ not ‘that for the sake of.’ We will not persevere ‘for the sake of our obedience,’ as if our obedience is in any way seen as being meritorious in nature, but neither will we be saved apart from our willing obedience.

    When you remove the element of man's voluntary formation of intents from the equation, you end up no where short of pure determinism.
     
  19. Inquiring Mind

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    Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

    1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

    2Co 7:15 And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.

    Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ

    Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
     
  20. Inquiring Mind

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    Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
     

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