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Perseverance of the Saints - denied?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Oct 19, 2006.

  1. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    "Perish" is in the subjunctive, therefore there's a good possibility of failure. "Might not perish" is probably better than "should not perish".
     
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    BobRyan: Please give your version with each passage of
    scripture you quote.

    example:
    Romans 15:4 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For whatsoeuer things were written aforetime,
    were written for our learning,
    that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might haue hope.

    Notice the term 'patience' is used instead of 'Preservance'.
    The application of patience is to daily life, not to
    eternal salvation. But then the 'preservance'
    in your translation also pertains to dailyh life with it's
    trials and tribulations NOT to eternal salvation.

    Sorry for my request, but I have dozens of translations/versions
    and am challenged by God's Holy Bible to check into each and
    every one. Please be frugal with God's time in my life and
    tell which version you are quoting. I thank you. God thanks you.
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    BobRyan: //Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
    Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."//

    Point of order: Repeating the verse under discussion
    without comment to support your understanding of it
    DOESN'T convince anybody, DOESN'T made sense,
    and ISN'T logical or scriptural.

    BTW, my Mark 13:13 reads like this:

    Mark 13:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
    ... but hee that shall endure vnto the ende, the same shall be saued.

    Note that Mark 13:13 and Matthew 24:13 are both the
    same statement of Jesus given as part of the Mount
    Olivet Discourse (MOD).

    Luke 17 and 21 also are what Jesus said about the future
    in the MOD. With Mark 13 and Matthew 24-25 these
    reports of the MOD are parallel passages -- the same
    truths of Jesus told in various ways.

    Luke 21:37 about Jesus (KJV1611 Edition):
    And in the day time he was teaching in the Temple,
    and at night hee went out, and abode in the mount
    that is called the mount of Oliues.


    Again "he that shall endure unto the end,
    the same shall be saved"
    being true does NOT prove the contention:

    he that shall NOT endure unto the end,
    the same shall NOT be saved.

    Nobody has yet challenged this LOGICAL FACT.

    Still waiting for a proof that this is scriptural:

    he that shall NOT endure unto the end,
    the same shall NOT be saved.

    (not just in this discussion, but in the same
    discussion over the past 32 years)
     
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Has anyone ever tried to establish proof of the existence of a rainbow to one that is blind?

    Are we to believe that because one cannot see or comprehend the obvious that somehow that invalidates the truth that is clearly evident?
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Great display of ADVOIDANCE there Brother HP -- Great Display. :BangHead:


    BTW, the LOGIC of which I speak is a branch of
    MATHEMATICS. It really isn't debatable, just true.


    The proposition:

    "he that shall endure unto the end,
    the same shall be saved"


    being true does NOT prove the proposition:

    he that shall NOT endure unto the end,
    the same shall NOT be saved

    (nor does the truth of the first proposition
    DISPROVE the second proposition)
     
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Who told you that logic was a branch of mathematic? Did not even Aristotle himself state that logic was not a science?

    Logic has no ability to ‘prove’ anything in reality. I see it only as a means to see if ones conclusions are consistent with ones propositions. Logic has no way that I am aware of to ever prove that a proposition is in fact ‘according to truth.’

    I fail to follow the logic of your reasoning. You seem to be stating that if the ‘second proposition’ is not or cannot be ‘proven’ by the first proposition that the second cannot be rightfully assumed from the first proposition, or so it would appear.

    Let me state a proposition. All dogs are canines. Is it reasonable to assume that cats are not canines, even though that cannot be proven ‘logically’ from the first proposition itself?
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Heavenly Pilgrim: //Are we to believe that because one cannot see
    or comprehend the obvious that somehow that invalidates
    the truth that is clearly evident?//

    I really haven't said if I believe:

    he that shall NOT endure unto the end,
    the same shall NOT be saved


    or if I don't believe it. That would only my opinion
    either way.

    What I said is a fact from the Logic branch
    of Mathematics usually expressed like this:

    The truth value of "If A; then B"
    is independant of the truth value of "If not-A; then not-B".

    Then I issued a challenge to prove this
    proposition from the scripture:

    He that shall NOT endure unto the end,
    the same shall NOT be saved.


    I shall go back and defuse any failed attempts
    that I might have missed earlier.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    HP: //Who told you that logic was a branch of mathematic?//

    My mentors, including vearious doctors and other learned
    person, when I got a Bachelor's degree in Secondary
    Education with a major in Mathematics. In the years
    1969-1973 I was a fully qualified teacher of both
    Mathematics and Logic. Teaching logic to Sophmores,
    15-year-olds yet, is an interesting experience.

    HP: //Logic has no ability to ‘prove’ anything in reality.//

    Exactly! Scripture is much better to 'prove' spiritual
    matters. However, if one figures out what I said in my last
    post, one will go try (if they really are that interested)
    to PROVE from the scriptures the proposition:

    He that shall NOT endure unto the end,
    the same shall NOT be saved.


    HP: //I fail to follow the logic of your reasoning. You seem
    to be stating that if the ‘second proposition’ is not
    or cannot be ‘proven’ by the first proposition that
    the second cannot be rightfully assumed from
    the first proposition, or so it would appear.//

    You got what I was trying to say.
    I explain it simpler in my last post.

    HP: //Let me state a proposition. All dogs are canines. Is it reasonable to assume that cats are not canines, even though that cannot be proven ‘logically’ from the first proposition itself?//

    Bad example. Say you have the proposition:
    If it is a dog; then it is a canine.
    (we know from experience this is TRUE)
    If it is NOT a dog; then it is NOT a canine.

    The second proposition is not always true.
    For example, we know that a wolf is a canine
    but is not a dog. for the wolf this proposition is true:
    If it is NOT a dog; then it is a canine.

    Anyway,
    If it is a dog; then it is a canine. and
    If it is not a dog; then it is not a canine.


    These two propositions have seperate
    truth values. The truth of the first does not
    PROVE the truth of the second. The second can
    be true (unlike my example) it just has to be proved
    seperately.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Tee hee.

    Seriously, the BB edition software is really bad.
    I just tryed two different ways to edit out a known
    'problem' with a post, but the software won't let
    me fix the 'problem'.

    Same here with plerservering
    I know it has an extra L up front and a spare 'er'
    toward the end, but I couldn't change it.
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    BobRyan: //But BOTH Arminian and Calvinist do agree on one
    thing - the Bible does teach that ONLY those who perservere
    to the END are ultimately saved. (Unless you are 4-point
    Calvinist of course)//

    Humans can only check from the far end.
    God knows from the front end:
    Those who are saved will perservere to the END.

    BTW, I do consider myself a 4-point Calvinist.
    IMHO Calvin describes how God 'works';
    Arminius describes how humans 'work'.
    Needless to say, it is easier to understand what
    Arminius said than what Calvin said.
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Spiritual matters are spiritually discerned, not 'proven.' Our walk is a walk of faith, not a walk guided by ‘proof.’



    HP: Such a clear implication as that needs no proof. All it takes is a heart centered on God and truth to discern the validity of such an implication. What is needed is a heart that has truth as its only object without the encumbrance of an agenda, 'possibly' in this case suppressing the obvious truth in order to create cover for a failed dogma. By your insistence upon further proof, I am reminded of those that wanted to see signs, or 'proof' that Jesus was the Christ.

    Some things are simply open to the hearts and minds of those seeking truth with their whole heart, and to others they remain hidden that go about incessantly seeking and demanding more evidence to 'prove' the obvious.

    I do not desire to be harsh or short, but this discussion is going nowhere Ed. I feel it is time to move on to more profitable areas of discussion. I hope you understand.






     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    HP: //Spiritual matters are spiritually discerned, not 'proven.'
    Our walk is a walk of faith, not a walk guided by ‘proof.’//

    True. But this true statement does NOT give you (or anybody)
    the right to misunderstand scripture.
    Nor does this true statement give you the moral high ground here.
    Nor does this true statement give spiritual insite into
    the matter at hand: what is the nature of the Perservation
    of the Saints?

    Come on, prove, spiritually show, demonstrate, some how
    convince some one, anyone, the truth of this statement:

    He that shall NOT endure unto the end,
    the same shall NOT be saved.


    HP: //I do not desire to be harsh or short, but this
    discussion is going nowhere Ed. I feel it is time to
    move on to more profitable areas of discussion.
    I hope you understand.//

    I understand exactly, you failed to prove:

    He that shall NOT endure unto the end,
    the same shall NOT be saved.


    and now turn tail.
    It is a debate and I debated you under the table.
    Yes, I understand AND SPIRTUALLY DISCERN.

    God's truth is:
    He that shall endure unto the end,
    the same shall be saved.


    Nobody has proved, spiritually shown, demonstrated, some how
    convinced some one that the following is true:

    He that shall NOT endure unto the end,
    the same shall NOT be saved.


    God's truth is:
    He that shall endure unto the end,
    the same shall be saved
    .

    Jesus saves! Praise Jesus! Glory to the Lord! Amen!

    People who are saved by Jesus will endure to the end.
    People who endure to the end are saved by Jesus.

    Bet on a sure thing (you after all are betting your eternal soul):

    Romans 10:9 (KJV1611 Edition):
    That if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
    and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God hath raised him from the dead,
    thou shalt be saued.


    And here is the nature of that salvation:

    John 3:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne:
    that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish,
    but haue euerlasting life
    .
     
  14. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Amen Brother Ed, preach it! :thumbs:

    The converse and inverse of statements cannot be assumed.
     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It is not difficult.
    Salvation is by faith and faith alone.

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    The saved are those that have believed and they are given eternal life.
    Jesus said: "I give uinto them eternal life."
    "The gift of God is eternal life." (Rom.6:23)

    God is omniscient. He is sovereign. All things work according to his foreknowledge, or to put it more accurately he knows aforetime all that is going to happen. Therefore:

    "He that endures to the end"

    simply means:
    That God knows that the saved will endure to the end. There is no question about at that. It is not a teaching that the saints have any possibility of losing their salvation. They don't. If they did eternal life wouldn't be eternal and Christ would be found to be a liar.
    DHK
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Brother DHK -- Preach it! :thumbs:

    Of course, it is hard for a human to know another human
    is saved or not. The only humanly practical method of determining
    a person is NOT SAVED is when they start living like they
    have no salvation. So all the 1/4 of the New Testament that
    talks about how Chrisitians should live, act, and walk is useful,
    for that is what the saved Christian needs to be doing.

    Good works are required of the saved person;
    fear of loosing one's salvation is NOT a requiremetn of the
    saved person.
    We are saved to good works. We are not saved by our good works;
    but by the Good Works of Messiah Jesus.
     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Consider the OP = opening post:

    You have not listed any of the good reasons for believing
    in the Perserveration of the Saints. Jesus saves initially;
    Jesus saves daily; Jesus saves eternally (FOREVER, i.e.
    no END).


    OSAS is about God's fidelity, not about human perfidy.
     
  18. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Look, false prophets will arise and decieve many who HAD LOVE and their love will wax cold... but he who endures till the end will be saved.

    Mt:24:
    11: And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    12: And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    13: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


    Look at who Jesus is talking to here in the same passage:
    Mt. 24
    3: And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive YOU
    5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I just quote the texts people like to ignore. It is from what could be termed "the bad bible" since many will object simply to "seeing" the texts quoted.

    The Bible (NT particularly) takes a great deal of time to focus on the motivation and need of the saints to actively focus on "persevering"

    "LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified". 1Cor 9 end of chapter.

    2 Tim 2 " IF we deny Him HE WILL ALSO deny US"


    Rom 11
    18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
    19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
    20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

    22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
    23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    This is right where many people "imagine" salvation without Christ - salvation IN the state of CAST AWAY - cut off from Christ - cut off for unblief - cast out like the unbelieving Jews. Applying that kind of eisegesis to this text is absolutely "required" to hold to OSAS "anyway".

    But leaving the text as is - SHOWING that the unbelieving Jews are in fact lost -- really lost -- results in a message FOR perseverance that can not possibly be ignored.

    However IF we could CHANGE the Bible then in Rom 11 we would say "the unbelieving Jews were never in to start with - they were never cast away or removed from anything since they were never IN to start with. You on the other hand are already IN and can never be moved away. So WHATEVER you do - DO NOT be tempted to LOOK at the case of the unbelieving Jews AS IF such a thing could ever be your condition. you are in and there is no chance of anything else happening to you. Be happy! Give thanks! You were SELECTED".

    That is the "kind of Bible" that 4 point Calvinism needs to invent when it gets to Matt 18, Rom 11, 2Tim 2, ... "bad bible" texts that fully debunk OSAS and those who deny perseverance.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #59 BobRyan, Oct 28, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2006
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Where is the idea of Perseverance in the Bible - you know the Bible texts that must be avoided by those who deny Perseverance?

    Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

    Heb 2:1-3
    1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

    Heb 3:6
    but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
    and the boast of our hope firm until the end.


    Heb 3:12-14
    12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
    13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
    by the deceitfulness of sin.
    14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,



    Heb 10:35-39
    35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
    36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
    37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
    38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
    39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

    1Cor 15:1-2
    1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
    in which also you stand,
    2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

    Rom 11:22
    20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
    22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
    if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
    23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


    Col 1:21-23
    22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
    Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
    23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY
    from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
    and of which I Paul was made a minister.



    Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

    Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
    8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
    Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
    9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.


    Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
    Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
     
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