Perseverance of the Saints

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by IfbReformer, Apr 2, 2003.

  1. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer
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    Hi fellow BB members,

    In another post on works related to salvation we started getting into perseverance of the saints.
    So I thought I would start a new thread on it.

    The way I have seen it there are three views when it comes to perserverance of the saints:

    CALVINISTIC VIEW:
    This view says that those who are the elect of God(truly saved inviduals) may fall temporarily but they will always get back up - they will endure or "persevere" to the end if they are truly saved.


    ETERNAL SECURITY POSITION VIEW:
    This view says that once a person accepts Christ as their savior they cannot lose this salvation. Even if they do not persevere in the faith. It a contract that cannot be broken.


    ARMINIAN VIEW:
    This view says that those who do not persevere in the faith will lose their salvation. Some can finally, and totally fall away after truly be saved.

    While I have considered myself more Calvinistic in my thinking I have always struggled with the doctrine of the perseverence of the saints. Most Calvinists struggle with limited atonement but for me it has been perseverance of the saints.

    Here is why:

    It seems to me that there is not too much difference between the Arminian and the Calvinist position - it seems to me that they are two sides of the same coin.

    Here is why, they both say that if someone does not perservere in the faith they will go to hell.
    The Calvinist says "he was never one of God's elect if he does not persevere" and the Arminian says "he was one of God's elect but he lost his election because he did not perservere".

    Whats the difference - they both result in the same thing - they are just explained differently by both sides?

    I will be interested to here the various view points on this.

    IFBReformer
     
  2. tyndale1946

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    Here is the Primitive Baptist view... We believe in the final Preservation of the Saints... Not because we persevered but because Jesus Christ did!... Without the perserverance of Jesus Christ there is no perserverance for the saints.

    John 10:[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    I Peter 1:[5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    I Peter 1:[23] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Colossians 3:[3] For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

    [4] When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist [​IMG]
     
  3. Bro. James Reed

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    Amen, Bro. Glen! [​IMG]

    I second that Primitive Baptist belief.

    It's in our Articles of Faith: The saints are preserved in Christ Jesus, by the blood, mercy, and grace of the Holy Trinity, and they shall never fall finally away.

    That is not a direct quote, but it's as best as I can remember it.

    We hold the "once saved, always saved" belief, but we don't believe it is dependent on our accepting Jesus as the Savior. So, I guess there are now 4 outlooks on salvation on your list. [​IMG]

    God Bless. Bro. James
     
  4. Daniel David

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    Don't forget the "Means of salvation" view. I don't have time to develop it right now. It is calvinistic. The first view you mentioned is better labeled the "Reformed" view.
     
  5. donnA

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    I'm with Bro. Glen, it's Jesus all the way. Someones going to work for my salvation and keep me saved, me or Jesus, and it ain't me.
     
  6. IfbReformer

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    Hi Glen,

    thanks for the response - since you believe in preservation of the saints as opposed to perservance of the saints I would say you are probably of the eternal security view as opposed to the first and third views.

    But just to clearify for everybody else the area of my post I want you to zoom in on is this "Here is why, they both say that if someone does not perservere in the faith they will go to hell." So If someone does not persevere in the faith do they go to hell? Can someone accept Christ and not persevere to the end? And what does "persevere" mean in your estimation?


    IFBReformer
     
  7. IfbReformer

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    Preach,

    You have sparked my curiosity - what is the "Means of salvation view" in an nutshell?

    IFBReformer
     
  8. rsr

    rsr
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    The contrast of "preservation" and "perseverance" constitutes a distinction without a difference.

    Obviously, PBs believe that they are "preserved" through God's grace; those who believe they "persevere" also believe they persevere solely through God's grace.
     
  9. Artimaeus

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    I am as strong in the eternal security camp as I can possibly get. Brother Blen's quoted verses work very well for illustrating my position. I might add:

    Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
     
  10. IfbReformer

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    Preach,

    You have sparked my curiosity - what is the "Means of salvation view" in an nutshell?

    IFBReformer
    </font>[/QUOTE]Preach - I could not wait so I looked into this for myself. You posted in this in another thread and now after some research I understand what you were really saying.

     
  11. IfbReformer

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    Brother Dave,

    Could you clearify what you mean by "We hold the "once saved, always saved" belief, but we don't believe it is dependent on our accepting Jesus as the Savior."?

    So can someone be saved without accepting Christ as their savior?

    Looking forward to your clearifaction.

    IFBReformer
     
  12. Bro. James Reed

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    ??? :confused: ???

    We believe that the scriptures teach that Christ must have accepted us in order for us to be saved. If he didn't, there is nothing we can do to become saved. On the other hand, if he did die for our sins, there is nothing we can do to slip out of that salvation.

    To answer your question, yes, we believe that a person can be saved without "accepting" Christ. In our view, if there is anything done on man's part to save himself, even if that means believing Christ is the Savior, then that throws the whole Salvation by Grace doctrine out the window.

    That's also one of the reasons we don't believe in missionary work. We don't believe man has any power in "turning someone to Christ so they can be saved." We believe the regeneration of an elect is something that God reveals to them Himself, without any help from man. Also, we don't believe in gospel regeneration, that is, preaching can regenerate a child of God.

    Does that answer some of your questions? I realize that this usually sounds very foreign to people because most religions/doctrines don't believe this. Now you know why we are looked on as outcasts to a lot of people. ;) [​IMG]

    Bro. James [​IMG]
     
  13. Gina B

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    Ephesians 1:13 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Wow. Looks like I need to re-examine what I believe! This verse says we're sealed AFTER be belive. I had thought the elect were sealed prior even to their existance.
    Although I did notice that the NIV doesn't make that quite as clear as the KJV.
    Gina
     
  14. tyndale1946

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    Not only that I agree with what my esteemed Primitive Baptist Brother In Christ... Brother James Reed said... And would like to add why do many as soon as they see the word... saved... salvation and works they think it applies to eternal salvation?... Scripture in point... Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for it is God that worketh in you both the will and the to do according to his own good pleasure.

    Is this talking about eternal salvation or your walk with the Lord as you serve him? What if one didn't do that are they lost worlds without end? What if they were walking and then they stop walking are they then lost?

    What are rewards... Do they apply to here or hereafter?... If Christ did all the work... Which PB believe like no one else on the finished work of Jesus Christ... Is there any reward greater than Heaven?... If you receive a crown in heaven do you deserve it if Christ did all the work?... We have a song we sing in the PB Churches called... Must Jesus Bear Cross Alone... Upon the crystal pavement down, at Jesus' pierced feet, With joy I'll cast my golden crown and his dear name repeat... He will SAVE all his children(sheep) and not lose a one... That is how Primitive Baptist see their Salvation [​IMG] ... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist [​IMG]
     
  15. IfbReformer

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    ??? :confused: ???

    We believe that the scriptures teach that Christ must have accepted us in order for us to be saved. If he didn't, there is nothing we can do to become saved. On the other hand, if he did die for our sins, there is nothing we can do to slip out of that salvation.

    To answer your question, yes, we believe that a person can be saved without "accepting" Christ. In our view, if there is anything done on man's part to save himself, even if that means believing Christ is the Savior, then that throws the whole Salvation by Grace doctrine out the window.

    That's also one of the reasons we don't believe in missionary work. We don't believe man has any power in "turning someone to Christ so they can be saved." We believe the regeneration of an elect is something that God reveals to them Himself, without any help from man. Also, we don't believe in gospel regeneration, that is, preaching can regenerate a child of God.

    Does that answer some of your questions? I realize that this usually sounds very foreign to people because most religions/doctrines don't believe this. Now you know why we are looked on as outcasts to a lot of people. ;) [​IMG]

    Bro. James [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Brother James,

    First off, sorry for calling you 'Dave'.

    Thanks for the clearifaction - and wow!

    Sounds to me like PBs are very similar to if not hyper-calvinists.

    I believe the scriptures teach that we are chosen and predestined in Christ before the foundations of the world. And yes I believe that we cannot accept Christ without the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit because we are completely evil and sinful - but when the Holy Spirit regenerates me and calls me(which I cannot resist) he causes me to call upon the Lord and be saved. But I must call upon the Lord - even though he causes me to do it and I will if I am one of the elect.

    How do you get around Romans 10:9-10 to say someone does not have to accept Christ to be saved?

    Romans 10:9-10(NIV)
    "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

    How is calling upon the name of the Lord and accepting him as savior a work? Is it work to accept a free gift?

    Ephesians 1:13-14(NIV)
    "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory."

    Does not Paul teach us in Ephesians 1 that we were "included in Christ" when we "heard the word of truth" - not before - and then "Having believed" then we were "marked in him with a seal-which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

    Romans 10:13-15(NIV)
    "for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!""

    I agree that man does not have any power in "turning someone to Christ so they can be saved" - the Holy Spirit is the one who turns someone to Christ, yet God uses human instruments to accomplish his will. You are right that preaching does not regenerate someone - it is the Holy Spirit who does, but God uses preaching as a tool like many other things.

    The Apostle Paul raises a good question for you then regarding missions - "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent?

    I will be very interested to hear your responses.

    Thanks

    IFBReformer

    [ April 03, 2003, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: IfbReformer ]
     
  16. Daniel David

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    Wrong. But we have been over this a thousand times and PBs still refuse to deal with all the passages that refute such an idea. Basically, it is a theology born out of limited information and not the Scriptures.
     
  17. Daniel David

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    So would I. Of course I have been interested for over a year and still haven't heard a response.
     
  18. Bro. James Reed

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    Well, I thought that Bro. Glen's response would suffice, but I guess not. Here is my attempt to explain, in my ignorance as a sinner, what Primitive Baptists believe about this. We believe there is an eternal salvation, as well as a timely salvation.

    A child of God can never lose his eternal salvation, as he has been secured through the blood of Christ and God's faith in that work.

    A child can lose their timely salvation, however. This is done by turning away from the truth of scripture, after you have been regenerated. For instance, I believe that, the better Christians we become and the less sinful lives we lead, if God has called us into the light of His word, then we will be living our timely salvation. That is the joy we have while on earth to praise and worship God. It gives us the hope of salvation in our hearts and minds, and it makes our actions pleasing to the site of God.

    Now, you can lose that timely salvation. I know many people that this has happened to. When the truth is revealed to you, you are supposed to come and join the church; this is also part of the joy of timely salvation. If you, let's say, get a divorce and start running around with women and such, if you become happy in that, you have lost your timely salvation; that is, God has taken away the knowledge and understanding of His truth from you. This, I believe, has to do with our works.

    In regard to missions, this is where I stand on the so-called Great Commission:

    Mark 16:
    14. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
    15. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

    Colossians 1:
    23. If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    That, to me, shows that the commission given to the apostles was carried out and completed.

    BTW, IFBReformer, I am so glad that we can discuss this in a civil manner. I have been attcked many times for stating what I believe. It's good to see someone conducting themselves in a Christian manner on this board. Thank you.

    God Bless. Bro. James [​IMG]
     
  19. IfbReformer

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    It is really scary to me to realize how much error is out there concerning the core doctrine of our faith - that of salvation.

    The way I see it there are critical errors and non-critial errors when it comes to the Gospel.

    The critical errors cause someone to think they are saved when they are not.

    The non-criticals errors in the presentation of the Gospel can still contain the heart of the Gospel - but they are in error when it comes to things before or after salvation.

    Here goes a brief summary of what I see going on:


    How a person comes to the point of salvation:

    Correct View
    Unconditional election(Calvinist leaning)
    Holy Spirit draws only the elect of God.
    Person comes to Christ because they are regenerated by the spirit and drawn irresitably to the point of accepting Christ as savior.

    Non-Critical Error
    Conditional election(Arminian leaning)
    Holy Spirit draws all men - some reject, some accept.
    Person comes to Christ completely of their own free will and then they are regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

    What happens at the point of salvation:

    Correct View
    A person must repent of their sins and accept Christ as Lord(not in the Lordship salvation sense)-but accept Christ as God and Savior. They must trust in the finished work of the shed blood of Christ on the cross believing that he died and rose again the third day and that none of their works before or after salvation can merit their salvation.


    Critical Error
    A person does not need to accept Christ as savior - they just saved because they are elect.
    (in reality if a person is elect he will accept Christ as his Savior).

    Critical Error
    Works are part of our salvation process. Works help to merit our salvation.


    What happens after salvation:

    Correct View
    Person may or may not produce much fruit. They may or may not be baptized or join a local church. They may never build much on their "foundation" which is Christ.

    Non-Critical Error(Calvinist Leaning)
    Person who is truly saved will do good works after salvation - not for salvation but as an evidence of salvation. Some will call this the perseverance of the saints. Those who persevere prove they are the elect of God. If a person does not persevere in the faith they prove they are not the elect of God(or in other words, saved).

    Non-Critical Error(Arminian Leaning)
    Person must do good works after being truly saved to maintain their salvation such as leading a holy life and church attendance and baptism. If they do not they then a truly saved(regenerate) person could loose the salvation.

    Just some more things to chew on.

    IFBReformer
     
  20. Daniel David

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    IFBreformer, where did you get the summary of the means of salvation view of perseverance?

    I will respond after you do.
     

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