Perseverance Of The Saints

There are a lot of points there I am sure someone will respond to other than me, but I side with the OSAS folk here. My salvation is not in my hands. I did not earn it or accomplish it, and there is nothing I can do to 'preserve' it. I am the responsibility of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:28-30 and Phil. 1:6, etc.) who is at work within me to transform me to the image of Christ.

He is faithful to complete the work He began and nothing, not even my own ornriness, can snatch me out of His hand.

As the Holy Spirit accomplishes His work in me (and although He has come a long way from where I used to be, there is still quite a ways to go, I am ashamed to say), my actions, or 'works', will reflect the changes going on inside of me. Therefore it is not my works that have anything to do with preserving my salvation, but they are simply the evidence of the work going on inside of me by God Himself.

That is, when I don't get in His way with my own ideas!

 

The 3 and 5 point Calvinists believe in the Bible doctrine of the perseverance of the saints - and for good reason. It is all throughout the NT (post to follow).

Arminians also accept a form of this. Certainly from the ARminian view if you take a person at the end of their life who is saved and work your way backward you will come to a moment where they were justified - where they accepted Christ and they will be shown to have remained - steadfast, firm, fixed throughout that entire time.

It is just that ARminians (such as myself)will also say that the SAME is true of some lost people except at the end of their life - they were not saved. But if you go back far enough some of those lost people will have a saved - born again experience.

This is the model of Matt 18 and "forgiveness revoked" where all the sins -- all the debt owed is returned and the individual has to pay them.

In any case - I know that both Arminians and Calvinists here will claim OSAS so I don't claim that rejecting it - is something that all the Arminians do. I certainly do not accept OSAS and Matt 18 shows why (and Gal 5 "Fallen from Grace" etc are reasons why) -- but others here do.

In Christ,

Bob

 

But BOTH Arminian and Calvinist do agree on one thing - the Bible does teach that ONLY those who persevere to the END are ultimately saved.

Under 5 point (TULIP) Calvinism you can't really know if you're saved today until you know if you will persevere tomorrow.

In Arminianism you CAN know you are saved today no matter WHAT you choose to do tomorrow.

So is it true that scripture leaves them "without excuse" for thinking that there is "no such thing as failing to endure"??

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Stated that REAL Examples of such failure exist.

And then there is always “Forgiveness revoked”!!

These texts do not describe a defacto “drift into heaven”.

But rather a “pressing on” as in Phil 3 and a “buffeting” as in 1Cor 9.

Simple Question for Calvinists and OSAS promoters – who is the “WE” and the “US” in the following text?

What is the meaning of “He Also will deny US”?

The OSAS doctrine guts the very core of the “motivation” we see in 1Cor 9 as Paul EXPLICITLY says “LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified”. OSAS goes after that point – directly, explicitly and without remorse.

 

Well we agree at least on some of that - certainly it is clear that the NT warns against the very real problem of failing to persevere!

The point where we differ is what the NT declares to be the "consequence" of such failure in the text above.

In Rev 2 and 3 referenced above there is the promise to those that "overcomes", do you see the promise as being "eternal life"?

In Christ,

Bob

 

The problem with OSAS is that there is not test for salvation in the first place. The Dispy says, "I invited Jesus" and the Reformed says, "I am elect."

 

And John says

We KNOW that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit...If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. And so we KNOW and rely on the love God has for us....This is how we KNOW that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.

...I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.
from 1 John, chapters 4 and 5

Eternal life is not temporary life. And knowing is not supposing. We KNOW we have ETERNAL life in Christ.

We can lose our rewards; our works themselves can be burned up. But we, ourselves, cannot be removed from His hand. Salvation is salvation and eternal life is eternal life. It is the rewards that can be won or lost, not salvation.

One last point, forgiveness is NOT the same as justification or atonement. "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" does not have things in the wrong order!

 

Please read the context and understand what "fallen from grace" actually means:

What was the idea that Paul had been trying to get across to the Galatians?

All throughout the Galatians Paul was trying to correct their doctrinal error of salvation by faith plus works. Apparently they were being caught up in Judaism, which was causing them to slowly but surely lean toward preaching salvation by faith plus the deeds of the law.

Notice Galatians 5:4: "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law." These people were making the grace of Christ of none effect because they were teaching that one needed to follow the law to be justified. "Ye are fallen from grace" means they were falling from the teaching, preaching, and application of grace in their lives, not that they had actually escaped the saving effect of God's grace. That is impossible! Please read the context carefully! There is overwhelming context that indicates such an interpretation. Let's not choke on phrases like this without understanding context.

 

John also says They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 John 2

 

OSAS:

 

...I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.


Write what things? Doing the good works mentioned in the letter.

 

Try counting the number of times John mentions that we may KNOW in his first epistle. Look at what we may know -- not suppose, not hope for, not pray for, but know.

Then look at Phil. 1:6 and see if God will leave anyone half-done.

Then look at Romans 8 and see if there is any indication that once we are His we can be otherwise.

He BOUGHT us. We are NOT our own, even that we should try to walk away! We are NOT our own to do that. We are His. He could, I suppose give us away or sell us, but He does not. Instead, by the power of the Holy Spirit, He transforms each of us into images of Himself. A person can argue about backsliding all they want, but if someone belongs to Christ, they belong to Christ, period. If they don't, they can pretend and fool a lot of us, but they cannot fool Christ!

 

In 1 John we see a lot of "By THIS WE KNOW" --

In Christ,

Bob