Pessimistic eschatology hampers missions

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Dec 14, 2013.

  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    Rapture theology is the worst, imo. It tells you to EXPECT the church to fail to evangelize the world and that few people will believe in Christ in the end, that the church will utterly FAIL to fulfill the Great Commission, and the best thing you can do is hunker down and wait for Jesus to come and get you out of this mess.

    We Calvinists like to boast that Calvinism GAVE us modern missions and that it has done more in the last two hundred years to fulfill the Great Commission than anything else ever hoped to accomplish.

    And that's true- kind of.

    But I think what you find moving William Carey and the like forward to take the world for Christ is not their soteriology as much as their eschatology. They believed the church was going to do what Jesus said it would do- grow until it filled the earth. And they wanted to be a part of it.

    Even rabid Arminians like Finney and the Wesley's embraced this optimistic eschatology.

    I believe this is what we need today. I pray for the death of rapture theology in my life time and for a rebirth of earth conquering eschatology like the great missionaries had.
     
  2. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yep I agree...... what we need today is more of them "rabid" arminian types.

    :)
     
  3. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    The thing about the rapture theology that boggles my mind is that the church and the Spirit are pulled out of the world for literally 7 years. Yet, in these 7 years, people will be saved. Isn't there a disconnect here? Is there something I am missing here?
     
  4. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    Who on earth in history would not say that Finney was a rabid Arminian? I don't see the problem.
     
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,270
    Likes Received:
    777
    What we see in scripture is that prior to the church dispensation the Holy Ghost acted externally(1) for the most part. There were cases in which the Holy Ghost would indwell certain individuals like David and Saul.(2) Sometimes during the OT the Holy Spirit would come on individuals temporarily like Samson.(3) During the church age those who are “in Christ” are indwelt permanently.(4) This shows that we are His and He has “sealed” us and given us the “earnest” of our future redemption.(5) This indwelling is clearly a difference from what we see in the OT as there is no such promise of indwelling or coming to the body of believers as a whole.(6) During the tribulation they will not be “indwelt” but the Holy Ghost will return as it did in the OT.


    1. Isaiah 63:11
    2. 1 Samuel 16:13, 1 Samuel 10:10
    3. Judges 16:28-31
    4. John 16:13, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 2 Timothy 1:14
    5. Ephesians 1:14-15, 1 Cor 1:21-22
    6. John 16:13
     
  6. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    If I am understanding the way it's expressed on here, the Spirit is removed. Is this correct? I truly don't want to misrepresent your, or the other's view. Please expound.
     
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,270
    Likes Received:
    777
    No, The Holy Ghost works through the church as a restainer of unfettered sin and and the "man lf lawlessness".(1) When the church is removed there will be no one who is indwelt anymore as was during the OT and He will return to that activity. This is because the church is the temple of God and the place where He dwells with man.(2) This is when the restraining ministry ceases but the Holy Ghost remains.




    1. 2 Thess 2
    2. 1 Cor 3:16
     
  8. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    8,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    What church saved Abraham?

    No offense to you in particular, C1, but this is why people who don't understand a certain doctrine -- particularly one they have rejected without really investigating it -- shouldn't criticize it. Millions will repent and come to Christ for salvation during the time following the Rapture of the church.

    We know this because John, who was given a vision of that time saw millions of people wearing dazzlingly white robes standing before the throne of God. There were so many that they couldn't be counted by a man. An "elder" in heaven asked John who these people were. John didn't know, but knew that the one asking did know. The conversation went like this, according to John, who recorded it in his prophecy.

    Revelation 7, NASB
    9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
    10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, " Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
    11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures ; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
    12 saying, " Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
    14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God ; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
    16 "They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore ; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat;
    17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes." ​

    Who are these people? Have they heard the gospel in this age, before the Rapture and onset of the Tribulation, and then had a second chance at faith?

    The issue becomes somewhat more problematic when we ask whether those who during this present era, the Church Age, have heard the gospel, understood that Jesus is the only way to salvation, yet refused God's grace gift for redemption, will have another chance during the Tribulation. God Himself will send those people who have hardened their hearts and rejected His Son a "strong delusion."

    2 Thessalonians 2
    6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
    7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
    8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
    9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
    10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
    11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
    12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. ​

    Some believe the previous verse means people who had a chance to be saved before the Rapture but rejected Christ won't have any hope of salvation after the Rapture. But the 2 Thessalonians 2 account doesn't actually say that will be the case. This Scripture indicates that all who reject God's call to salvation and choose to stay in their sin will be given over to Satan and his man of the Tribulation hour, Antichrist. They will fall for his lies and be damned forever. They will be damned without hope of redemption when they take Antichrist's mark. (See Revelation chapter 13.)

    Antichrist's lies will be powerful and alluring, much like Lucifer's lies were almost irresistible to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. One's chances for coming to a belief in Jesus Christ for salvation will be greatly hindered during the Tribulation. I believe it is for this reason that Paul -- whose mysterious trip to the "third heaven" likely was a vision similar to John's -- wrote "NOW IS THE ACCEPTABLE TIME, behold, now is THE DAY OF SALVATION."
     
    #8 thisnumbersdisconnected, Dec 14, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2013
  9. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,118
    Likes Received:
    319
    Presumably, those saved during the Tribulation will hear the gospel from the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel.

    HankD
     
  10. OnlyaSinner

    OnlyaSinner
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages:
    293
    Likes Received:
    11
    Those holding to a pre-trib rapture (I'm in that group) obviously should not "hunker down", but instead, realizing that the time of opportunity to be used of God in sharing the Gospel may be very limited, should be out in the fields white unto harvest. My breadth of experience is limited (mainly in the Northeast), but I've found that most churches teaching pre-trib rapture are strongly missions-oriented.
     
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,270
    Likes Received:
    777
    And usually more so than others.
     
  12. go2church

    go2church
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Messages:
    4,304
    Likes Received:
    6
    There has been a sense from some that optimism in today's world is misplaced and misguided, much like polishing the brass on a sinking ship, "well it's all going to end in flames and blood, why bother". At least that is the version of dispy eschatology I was exposed to and it is depressing, some would say even fatalistic. Hard to be excited about acres of blood and planes crashing and all the destruction the rapture would create.

    Better to me to believe that we can actually make earth a better place while waiting for Jesus to return.
     
  13. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,118
    Likes Received:
    319
    1 Thessalonians 4
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    Well, it doesn't say - terrify one another with these words.

    HankD
     
  14. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,451
    Likes Received:
    60
    Your logic is ridiculous.

    God can still send revival and we are not suppose to expect the church to fail,and the church is not going to fail,Many people have been saved through God's using of the church already!! the rapture will come when God wants it to, but that does not mean we are to expect the church to fail! Who's to say there wont be a great revival before the rapture?

    The Rapture motivates us to do as much as we can now because our time is limited and could end at any moment!
     
  15. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,118
    Likes Received:
    319
    I would agree, Jesus said "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" meaning that they will try but not succeed.

    HankD
     
  16. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,248
    Likes Received:
    184
    The most depressing constructs of the last days are those which show no total victory of the believers, but some "gradual" righteousness that "slowly" spreads across the world.

    Why would Christ want to come back as "Lord of Lords, King of Kings" when the world just rolls along like "ole man river." There would never be an end, no need for a second heaven and earth, never an eternal lake of fire, no wedding feast, for the earth is just lifted from its "present condemnation" to life eternal.

    Besides, can anyone really hold that the world is being converted to Christ?

    Does not that fly in the face of Calvinistic thinking? When will EVERYONE be saved in the Calvinistic view? Does not their own thinking disprove some world wide everyone saved view?

    Frankly, the most depressing is that which considers that the state of the world is improving? What improvement? In the last two hundred years, can anyone show improvement has not brought serious problems?

    Try all the medical "improvements." Are they actually all without huge problems? A list is foolish even to begin, but most medical folks agree that there are certainly medical advances, but no disease is completely wiped out - none. That some are now enhanced to be used as weapons...

    What of social, economic, and other "improvements?" Is not the evidence clear that, in the millennia from Eden, humankind have just invented better ways to slay Abel?

    What of the poor? Christ said, you will always have the poor. Is not the thinking that rejects the rapture and even that which rejects the literal millennium offering a communistic view of everybody will have and there will be no have nots, no rulers, no followers, ...

    The most depressing aspect is the thinking that the evil of this world is not avenged, that God does not store up the tears in a bottle, and dump wrath upon those that for millennia have destroyed believers in the desire to eradicate light.

    And finally, it is so very depressing that the papists will never be held accountable for the idolatry driven worship, and the very long history of the slaughter of the innocent believers. The lies, and excesses of wealth and power. The shame of the rapes and murders by priests who for centuries used the nuns for carnal pleasure and destroyed the evidence, covering up the shame by creating "convents" to remove the innocent from any protection from family.

    All other views are all so very depressing when one compared to that which is offered in hope of the rapture and second coming.
     
    #16 agedman, Dec 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2013
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,081
    Likes Received:
    204
    The pre-trib position is not the only position that believes in the rapture. The Historic premill posiion does not deny the rapture but only places it at the Post-trib coming of Christ.

    Romans 9-11 is the most extensive work on Israel and election found in the New Testament and yet the term "church" is not found even once in all three chapters. The "church" or the congregational body of Christ has nothing to do with salvation but is the public "house of God" for water baptized believers. It's foundation is New Testament, its first members set in the congregation are apostolic, not Old Testament prophets or Old Testament believers (1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 2:20).
     
  18. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    Yea, kinda like a mustard seed and leaven and just about every other parable Jesus gave about the Kingdom.

    There is absolutely nothing pessimistic about the idea that things are getting better because the Gospel is spreading and eventually the Church is going to do what Christ put the church on the Earth to do- baptize the nations.

    The gates of hell are falling and are going to fall before Christ's church just like Jesus said they would.

    Why not?

    Pardon me, but I think that's a silly question.

    You need to do some study on eschatology so you can come to understand what those terms mean in non-dispensational perspectives.

    Everybody with half a brain and access to the remotest research tools already knows it.

    The church started with a 120 in an upper room.

    There's quite a few more than that today!

    We got a long way to go but we've come a long way.

    No. Calvinists are the ones who have been the greatest advocates of postmil eschatology. You need to do some study. You really do.

    Postmil is the eschatology of the Puritans, William Carey, Adoniram Judson, Jonathan Edwards (perhaps the most brilliant theologian who ever lived- certainly top three [maybe behind Augustin and Calvin]), etc...

    If you have to ask that tells you how thick are the blinders you have on.

    Do you have ANY IDEA how bad things were 2,000 years ago??


    Can anyone NOT show it???? How could anyone MISS it????

    There might not be a real medical doctor on EARTH who thinks that there have not been VAST medical improvements over the last 200 years.

    I can't believe you would even IMPLY otherwise in public.


    No. Apart from upheavals like the World Wars the world has been growing more and more tame- ESPECIALLY where the Gospel (particularly the Protestant handling of it) has prospered.

    There are the FACTS and then there is this stuff that pessimists WANT to believe so they view the world through blinders.

    The most civilized nations on earth are not feeding Christians to lions with tens of thousands cheering in the stands.

    Yes, we need to conquer the Muslim world- and there is absolutely no reason to think we won't.

    But freedom is GROWING in this world. What was NOVEL when our founders started it- is COMMONPLACE in the civilized world today.

    MILLIONS are being saved in Africa and China every passing week.

    South Korea is TEEMING with MILLIONS of Christians who were NOT there as little as 75 years ago!!

    These are the FACTS.

    FACTS.


    Deal with the facts above and I will explain this to you.

    I am not sure this is even readable but I'll take a shot at what I think you are trying to say.

    Sinners go to hell. That's where the wrath of God is poured out.

    Do you expect God to resurrect all the persecutors of Christians over the past two thousand years so he can pour his wrath upon them in the "tribulation"?

    How does that work??



    So... you don't believe in hell and the judgment??

    You think God's primary way of punishing popes is the 7 years of tribulation???

    SERIOUSLY???

    You're not kidding???

    Is this really a point you are making???
     

Share This Page

Loading...