Peter's oblivion in the transfiguration.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jope, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. Jope

    Jope
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    Why do you think that the phrase, about Peter's words, "not knowing what he said" is included in the passage about the transfiguration:

    Luke 9:33, KJV, bold emphasis mine
    Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.​

    ?
     
  2. Scarlett O.

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    It wasn't that Peter was oblivious to his own mouth speaking - as in being unaware of words coming out of his mouth.

    It's that he had no idea of the mistaken doctrine that was very subtly coming out of his mouth. Peter was bad habit about talking first and thinking about what to say second. A lot of us are that way. :flower:

    When he wanted to build a tabernacle or shelter for Moses, Elijah, and Jesus - he was treating them with equal dignity and equal value and equal honor. Moses, representing the law and Elijah, representing the prophets could never be on par with Christ. The law and the prophets aren't comparable to divine grace.

    Note that immediately God sent a frightening cloud and stated, "This is My Son whom I have chosen - LISTEN to Him." God had to tell Peter to stop talking!

    Then they looked up and Jesus stood there alone. Moses and Elijah - the law and the prophets were gone.
     
  3. HisWitness

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    read in another place and youll see it was only a Vision ---how could it had been real when Moses and Elijah were still dead ?????????the resurrection hadn't occurred yet.

    Vision only there of what was to come.
     
  4. Jope

    Jope
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    Hey HisWitness,

    Which passage are you speaking of that says it was a vision?
     
  5. HisWitness

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    Matthew 17-9---the same event

    And as they came down from the mountain,Yeshua charged them,saying,Tell the VISION to no man,until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
     
  6. Van

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    Not knowing what he said is sometimes rendered (NIV) he did not know what he was saying. This again is taken to mean, he did not know what to say, so he said something inappropriate. The HCSB links the phrase to Mark 14:40 which says, after being caught sleeping, they did not know what to say. Mark 9:6, part of the parallel account in Mark, indicates Peter did not what to say because they were terrified. A few verses later, only Jesus was present, suggesting Peter was confused, thinking the vision was real, and thus the aberrations would need physical lodging. Matthew (17:4-5) indicates they became terrified when the cloud and voice occurred, after Peter had started speaking and while he was still speaking.

    Gill's commentary includes this understanding: [Peter]" being ignorant of the design of this appearance; which was, not that this glory should continue, only that he should be an emblem and pledge of what was future; and besides, he was wrong in putting these two men upon an equal foot with Christ, each of them being to have a separate tabernacle as he; and he appeared to be quite out of the way, in proposing earthly tabernacles for glorified persons to dwell in, who had an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens: moreover, as to the mystical sense, Moses and Elias, the law and the prophets, were not to be considered as in distinct apartments, and separate from Christ, but as agreeing with him, and fulfilled and swallowed up in him; who only, according to the voice that followed, was to be heard and attended to, and not they, as distinct from him. "
     
  7. Jope

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    In the epistle of Peter, this event is linked with the millennium.
    I think that Peter said this obliviously because, in the millennium, God will coerce men's mouths.
     
  8. Jope

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    Christ "is able even to subdue all things unto himself" (Philipp. 3:22, KJV).

    The mouths of men will be coerced in the millenium, as we read in Philippians 2:11.
     
  9. Jope

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    As for the building of the tabernacles for Moses, Elijah and Christ, I think that Moses and Elijah could be the two that sit on Christ's right and left hand in the millennium (Mark 10:40),

    And the tabernacle is not but a fulfillment of OT prophecy (Ezekiel 37:27).
     
  10. Van

    Van
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    NASB translation of Philippians 2:11 says every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord, indicating acceptance of Jesus as God Almighty, not the robotic coercion of their tongue so they say what they did not autonomously accept.
     
  11. convicted1

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    They'll confess that Jesus is Lord because they will know, and it will be too late for those who failed to believe.
     
  12. Jope

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    Philippians 2:10-11 also says (in conjunction with Isaiah 44:23), that people in Sheol/Hades will praise the LORD in the millennium.

    Philippians 2:10-11 NASB, bold emphasis mine
    so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Isaiah 44:23 NASB, bold emphasis mine
    Shout for joy, O heavens, for the Lord has done it!
    Shout joyfully, you lower parts of the earth;
    Break forth into a shout of joy, you mountains,
    O forest, and every tree in it;
    For the Lord has redeemed Jacob
    And in Israel He shows forth His glory.​

    Do you believe that those in Hades/Sheol are saved in the millennium?
     
    #12 Jope, Jul 1, 2013
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  13. Jope

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    Did not God coerce Caiaphas' mouth?

    "Now [Caiaphas] did not say this on his own initiative..." (John 11:51, NASB).
     
  14. Jope

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    Scripture also says that there is a spirit of the mouth (1Kings 22:22; 2Thess. 2:8), and a spirit of the mind (Eph. 4:23).

    If the Father is a Father of spirits (Heb. 12:9), I think He could coerce the spirit of the mouth without coercing the spirit of the mind.
     
  15. Van

    Van
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    Spot on, Convicted1, spot on!!
     
  16. Van

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    No, the bible teaches those in Hades go to the great white throne judgment, confess Jesus is Lord, but too late, and then because their names were not written in the Lamb's book of life, go into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
     
  17. Van

    Van
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    The issue is not whether God can coerce a tongue, of course He can, but whether at the great white thrown judgement, the confession is by their own initiative.
     
  18. Van

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    Again, God is All Powerful and can do all things, nothing is impossible for God. But just because God can do something does not demonstrate God actual did something. Here is an illustration:

    God could put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars. Nothing in the Bible says He did not. So He is able, and the Bible says He put everything in the heavens in the heavens. So can we say, God put invisible pink elephants in orbit around mars. No. We must stick with what God says He did, not what we might speculate God has the power to do.

    Thus when we read scripture, we do not ask, what is the most that could be poured in by man's speculation, but rather, what is the least that is being said, so we do not take away, but also we do not add.

    Here is another illustration, when escaping from Pharaoh, God parted the "red" sea. Does that mean when any believer is trying to escape persecution, God will miraculously provide an escape route? No. Because we are already in the "ark" of Christ, we have already escaped the real threat to our lives.
     
    #18 Van, Jul 1, 2013
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  19. Jope

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    You're making it sound like they confess Jesus as Lord at the great white throne judgment, is that what your argument is?
     
    #19 Jope, Jul 1, 2013
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  20. Jope

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    So are you saying that God can coerce a tongue, so that, in the millennium they will not know with their mind that Jesus is Lord, but their tongues will confess it?

    Convicted1 said that "they will know" that Jesus is Lord, do you agree with his whole post?
     

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