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Petros/Petra

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Aash, Dec 29, 2008.

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  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    In the KJV "Ye" is the plural form of "you," if that is what you are asking.
     
  2. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    All right. DHK says they are catholic (universal) keys. Not bad, DHK. It makes more sense than what I heard from a seminary professor a couple of weeks ago. However, I can't understand why we all have a set of keys but only the apostles can bind and loose (Post #16). Jesus did not seem to make that distinction in v. 19.
     
  3. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Just for a point of interest the bible follows cultural writing styles of the day. I've also read Atrahasis and the epic of Gilgamesh and that geographic area is noted for repeating phrases to emphasis a point. Its the ancient equivelant of an exclamation point.
     
  4. defenderofthefaith

    defenderofthefaith New Member

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    I'm going to take it that we're referring to the Catholic belief that Peter is the Rock?

    Jesus said in Matthew 16:18, “And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”
    This is the Bible verse to which the Catholic apologist quickly turns in order to defend the establishment of the papacy. Through an arbitrary interpretation of this verse—an interpretation which suggests that Jesus chose Peter to be the “rock” (foundation) upon which the church would be built. But what did Jesus mean in this verse recorded by Matthew? Was Jesus declaring that Peter was the “rock” of the church?

    Matthew 16:18 relates an incident that took place in Caesarea Philippi, when the Lord asked His disciples, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?” (Matthew 16:13). The disciples answered by reciting the various popular opinions about Jesus’ identity. Then, Jesus, making the question more personal, asked His own disciples: “But who do you say that I am?” (Matthew 16:15). To this second question, only Peter dared to answer, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16). Due to his response, Jesus addressed Peter with the declaration, “Upon this rock I will build my church” (16:18). Consequently, Jesus’ statement in Matthew 16:18 is connected exclusively to Peter’s confession concerning Christ’s deity.

    We must also examine the difference between two Greek words used in the text: “You are Peter (petros) and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church” (Matthew 16:18). In reference to Peter, the Holy Spirit recorded the Greek word petros—“a detached stone or boulder, or a stone that might be thrown or easily moved” (definition from W.E. Vine's An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words[/I). In contrast, in reference to the “rock,” the Holy Spirit recorded the Greek word petra, which denotes a solid mass of rock (again from Vine's book).
    Furthermore, these two words are in a different gender; the word petros is masculine, while the word petra is feminine, therefore, petros refers to the Aramaic name Jesus gave Peter (Cephas, John 1:42), while the word used for “rock” (petra) refers to the very foundation of the church, i.e., the truth that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah (Matthew 16:16).

    Although these two Greek words clearly show that Peter was neither the foundation nor the head of the church, it still is important to note what Peter himself said about the “rock.”

    In his first epistle, Peter, by divine inspiration, used the Greek word lithos to refer to Jesus: “Coming to Him as to a living stone (lithos), rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious.... Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, ‘Behold, I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone (lithos), elect, precious’.... ‘The stone (lithos) which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone’” (1 Peter 2:4-7).
    Then, in the following verse (2:8), the apostle interchangeably used lithos and petra—the same Greek word recorded in Matthew 16:18—when he described Jesus as “a stone (lithos) of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense.” In Acts 4, Peter, speaking again by divine inspiration (vs. 8), said of Jesus: “This is the ‘stone (lithos) which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone’” (4:11). Without a doubt, Peter, more than any religious person of our modern times, conveyed the true meaning of the word used in Matthew 16:18.

    We need to determine what the other apostles and early Christians believed concerning the “rock,” the foundation of the church. The inspired apostle Paul told the Corinthians that the Israelites in the wilderness “all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock (petra) that followed them, and that Rock (petra) was Christ” (1 Corinthians 10:4). How much more clearly could it be stated? Since the Old Testament, the rock referred to Christ, not Peter. In Ephesians 2:20, Paul stated, “Having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone...”. By a study of these passages, it is obvious that the apostles and other Christians of the New Testament knew, believed, and taught that the “rock” referred to Christ, not Peter.

    We also must consider Jesus’ teachings concerning the “rock.” In Luke 20:17 (following His parable of the wicked vinedressers), Jesus quoted the words of Psalm 118:22, as Peter did, which describe Him as “the living stone” (lithos). He went on to say, “Whoever falls on that stone (lithos) will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder” (Luke 20:18; Matthew 21:42,44; Mark 12:10). His comments were directed at the Jewish people, particularly the chief priests and scribes who showed disdain toward those sent by God, including the Messiah. These religious leaders knew “He was speaking of them” (Matthew 21:45), and understood that He was referring to Himself as the chief cornerstone that would crush any who disbelieved in Him.

    If Jesus prophetically said, “Upon this rock I will build my church” (Matthew 16:18), we would expect to find this prophecy’s fulfillment. The biblical evidence shows that the “rock” refers to Peter’s confession of Jesus’ deity, and by extension, to Jesus Himself. Jesus promised that He would build His church on the foundation of Who He is, “the Christ, the Son of the living God,” as described by Peter in Matthew 16:16. In fact, the realization that Jesus was the Son of God and the Messiah was the striking truth that compelled 3,000 people to believe in Jesus, repent, and be baptized to be part of the church of the Lord (Acts 2:36-47). In Jerusalem, on the Day of Pentecost, only 50 days after His resurrection, Christ fulfilled His prophecy that “upon this rock” (i.e., the fact that Jesus is God and the Messiah; Matthew 16:16; cf. Acts 2:22-36) He would build His church. On that memorable day, Peter stood before the crowds not to declare himself as the first “pope” of the church, or as the “father” of all believers. Rather, he stood humbly to give honor and acknowledge the deity of the One Who made the church a reality.

    There is no biblical basis on which to defend the argument that Peter is the "rock". To adopt a rock (i.e., a foundation) other than that which is already laid, is to build upon a man-made foundation, which is unstable and one day will collapse. To accept a foundation other than Christ, is to usurp His God-given role as the Head of the church which He bought with His own blood (Acts 20:28). Paul wrote, “For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 3:11).
     
  5. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I asked about the keys in the Baptist Theology forum. Some are saying that it does not have to do with this passage necessarily, which seems to have to do with church discipline. And this passage doesn't mention keys.

    The comments on the keys issue there are interesting.
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    The context (Mat.18:15-20) is speaking of church discipline.
    The steps are given. When there is an offence one is to go to "him that has trespassed against you," and tell him about it. If the issue is reconciled you have won your brother.
    If not, take one or two others, that in the presence of two or three witnesses every word may be established. If the brother refuses to repent of his wrong, then the matter must be brought before the church.
    If the brother refuses to repent, even when the matter is brought before the church, then he is to be treated as a heathen and a publican--in other words, excommunication, as they did in 1Cor.5:1-5.
    Jesus says about that entire process, and the decision that the church renders:

    Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    Jesus is saying that the decision that is made by the local church carrying out the discipline, is of the Lord and in agreement with the Father in Heaven.

    Again he says:
    Matthew 18:19-20 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
    --Note: It shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
    --And verse twenty (which is often used out of context) is referring to the discipline of the local church. Christ is with those in the business meeting making such a serious decision that is affecting so many lives.

    These verses are similar to the verses in Matthew 16 but do not mention the word key. However Luke does, but in the context of "the key of knowledge."
    All of our decisions are based on the gospel, the fact that we as believers know the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Nevertheless, I still believe the key has more of a direct reference to the gospel.
     
  7. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Let me add some more scriptures to DHK's Post #19, where he cites I Corinthians 10:4
    "...and they all drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them; and that Rock was Christ."

    Romans 9:33 "Behold I am laying a stone in Zion that will make people stumble and a rock that will make them fall, and whoever believes in him shall not be put to shame."

    Ephesians 2:20 ."....built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ himself as the corner stone."

    Peter himself referred to Jesus as "... "A stone that will make people stumble, and a rock that will make them fall." ...by disobeying the word... (I Peter 2:8)

    The Rock upon which Jesus said he will build his church is Jesus himself. Peter's confession "Thou are the Christ..." lays the groundwork for Jesus being the Rock.
     
  8. Aash

    Aash New Member

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    I forgot to mention this, Dr. Carson makes two great points in his commentary on pg 368:

    “Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter was a stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been 'lithos' ('stone' of almost any size). Then there would have been no pun - and that is just the point! . . .

    In this passage Jesus is the builder of the church and it would be a strange mixture of metaphors that also sees him within the same clauses as its foundation . . .”


    Now I want to explore lithos a little bit. There are a number of words the author could have used for rock or stone in Greek. Petra and Lithos was the most common and they were used interchangeably. Any connotation of small or large depends on context. The words simply mean rock or stone.

    In the Septuagint, Joshua 5:2-3, So Joshua made flint knives (out of rocks). You cannot make a stone knife out of a boulder, but it can be done out of a small rock that is manageable by hand.

    Though it can be argued that Lithos is more commonly used for small rock or stone, there are examples of it being used as a large stone as well. In Matt 28:2, it used for large stone that was to seal the tomb of Christ. Also Christ refers to himself as a stone in Matt 21:42-44. It is used as small stone in Matt 4:3 when the devil shows Jesus small stones (Greek: lithoi). John 10:31 Jews picked up lithoi to try to stone Jesus. Also in 1 Peter 2:5, Peter uses lithoi to describe the people of God as “living stones” He does not call the body of Christ, Petroi. The only word that is never used to denote “small stone” or small rock in the NT is Petros. Peter had an opportunity to use that word in 1 Peter 2:5, but he did not. The word petros is uniquely applied to Peter in Scripture and is never used to connote "small rock."

    Also as I have pointed out A.D Carson points out that the large/small distinction is found only in ancient Greek. A.D Carson and all the others Scholars I have listed agree that there is no distinction in definition between Petros and Petra. All the commentaries I provided are from Protestant Biblical Scholars.

    In the Gerhard Kittel’s Greek Dictionary on pg 98-99, 108. Editor Oscar Cullman says:

    The obvious pun which has made its way into the Gk. text as well suggests a material identity between petra and petros, the more so as it is impossible to differentiate strictly between the meanings of the two words. On the other hand, only the fairly assured Aramaic original of the saying enables us to assert with confidence the formal and material identity between petra and petros: petra = Kepha = petros.... The idea of the Reformers that He is referring to the faith of Peter is quite inconceivable in view of the probably different setting of the story...For there is no reference here to the faith of Peter. Rather, the parallelism of 'thou art Rock' and 'on this rock I will build' shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first. It is thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom He has given the name Rock. He appoints Peter, the impulsive, enthusiastic, but not persevering man in the circle, to be the foundation of His ecclesia. To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis is right and all Protestant attempts to evade this interpretation are to be rejected."

    (Reformed) William Hendriksen in his commentary on pg 647 says:

    The meaning is, “You are Peter, that is Rock, and upon this rock, that is, on you, Peter I will build my church.” Our Lord, speaking Aramaic, probably said, “And I say to you, you are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church.” Jesus, then, is promising Peter that he is going to build his church on him! I accept this view.

    Herman Ridderbos in his commentary on pg 35-36 says:

    "It is well known that the Greek word (petra) translated 'rock' here is different from the proper name Peter. The slight difference between them has no special importance, however. The most likely explanation for the change from petros ('Peter') to petra is that petra was the normal word for 'rock.' Because the feminine ending of this noun made it unsuitable as a man's name, however, Simon was not called petra but petros. The word petros was not an exact synonym of petra; it literally meant 'stone.' Jesus therefore had to switch to the word petra when He turned from Peter's name to what it meant for the Church. There is no good reason to think that Jesus switched from petros to petra to show that He was not speaking of the man Peter but of his confession as the foundation of the Church. The words 'on this rock [petra]' indeed refer to Peter. Because of the revelation that he had received and the confession that it motivated in him, Peter was appointed by Jesus to lay the foundation of the future church."

    John Peter Lange in his commentary on pg 293 says:

    The Saviour, no doubt, used in both clauses the Aramaic word kepha (hence the Greek Kephas applied to Simon, John i.42; comp. 1 Cor. i.12; iii.22; ix.5; Gal. ii.9), which means rock and is used both as a proper and a common noun.... The proper translation then would be: “Thou art Rock, and upon this rock”, etc.
     
    #28 Aash, Dec 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2008
  9. Aash

    Aash New Member

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    As I said earlier if Matthew wanted to distinguish between rocks, he would have used lithos, which could be used to refer to a large rock, although it too (like petra) was more commonly used to denote a small stone. There is a third word that Matthew could have used that ALWAYS means "small stone" or "pebble": Psephos. It is used this way twice in Rev 2:17.

    Also Matt 16 Jesus uses the word you 7 times in just three verses. Jesus didn't say he would build the Church on Peter's confession/faith. The context is clearly one in which Jesus is communicating a unique authority to Peter. Plus Jesus is portrayed as the builder of the Church. Jesus is "the wise man who built his house upon the rock" (Matt. 7:24) in Matthew’s Gospel.

    From the grammatical point of view, "this rock" must relate back to the closest noun. To say "this rock" refers to Jesus or Peter's faith/confession is to completely ignore the structure of the sentence. Here is an analogy, I have a care and a truck, and it is black. Which is black? The truck, because that is the noun closest to the pronoun it. This would be even clearer if the reference to the car were two sentences earlier, as Peter’s profession is two sentences earlier than the word rock.

    Back to the Aramaic agument, in Matthew 27:46, Jesus says, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ That isn’t Greek; it’s Aramaic, and it means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’ Also the 4 times in Galatians and 1 Corinthians, the Aramaic form of Simon's new name is preserved for us. In the English bibles its Cephas, this is not Greek. That's the transliteration of the Aramaic work Kepha

    Another point is that Peter said You are the Christos, and Jesus says "you are the Petros." There is just a parallelism there. Peter said you are the Son of the Living God and Jesus says you are the son of Jonah. Simon you are Petros (rock).

    Craig S. Keener says in his commentary on pg 426-427,

    "'You are Peter,' Jesus says (16:18), paralleling Peter's 'You are the Christ' (16:16). He then plays on Simon's nickname, 'Peter,' which is roughly the English 'Rocky': Peter is 'rocky,' and on this rock Jesus would build his church (16:18)....Protestants...have sometimes argued that Peter's name in Greek (petros) differs from the Greek term for rock used here (petra)....But by Jesus' day the terms were usually interchangeable, and the original Aramaic form of Peter's nickname that Jesus probably used (kephas) means simply 'rock.' Further, Jesus does not say, 'You are Peter, but on this rock I will build my church'....the copulative kai almost always means 'and'.... Jesus' teaching is the ultimate foundation for disciples (7:24-27; cf. 1 Cor 3:11), but here Peter functions as the foundation rock as the apostles and prophets do in Ephesians 2:20-21....Jesus does not simply assign this role arbitrarily to Peter, however; Peter is the 'rock' because he is the one who confessed Jesus as the Christ in this context (16:15-16)...."

    (Presbyterian) David Hill in his commentary on pg 261 says:

    On this rock I will build my church: the word-play goes back to Aramaic tradition. It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church. The disciple becomes, as it were, the foundation stone of the community. Attempts to interpret the “rock” as something other than Peter in person (e.g., his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which is highly unlikely.

    (Anglican) R.T France in the book 'Gospel According to Matthew on pg 254 says:

    "The word-play, and the whole structure of the passage, demands that this verse is every bit as much Jesus’ declaration about Peter as verse 16 was Peter’s declaration about Jesus. Of course it is on the basis of Peter’s confession that Jesus declares his role as the Church’s foundation, but it is to Peter, not his confession, that the rock metaphor is applied"
     
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    "Would have," "could have," but didn't. The Holy Spirit did not inspire Matthew to pen those words. Petra is used 16 times in the NT and every time it is translated "rock," many of those times referring to a massive rock.
    For example:
    Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks (petra), Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    --Those were no little stones being spoken of in verses 15 and 16.

    On the other hand petros is used 162 times in the NT. 161 times it is translated Peter. The one other time it is translated "stone," not rock.

    John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
    --Jesus meant what he said. Peter was not a rock. He was a stone. Scripture interprets Scripture.
    One uses personal pronouns when talking to people. So what?
    Jesus did not say that he wouldn't build his church on Peter's testimony. You want us to rely on your interpretation? I don't think so.
    Only a Catholic would say something like that. What denomination are you any way. You go to St. Andrew's Church??
    Rigtht, and the foundation that He builds on is Himself. Any other foundation is sinking sand. That is the whole point of the parable. If Peter is the foundation, your church is sinking or has already sunk.

    1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    --If your foundation is Peter; it is the wrong foundation.
    That depends what it is defining. It is defining petra, not petros.
    "I am going on a vacation. I have a diesel F-150 and a small Suzuki Swift. I will be pulling a trailer."
    I suppose that everyone but you can understand what I have just said. Most people would understand that I would pull a trailer with a Ford Truck. But you would insist that my grammar would demand that I pull my trailer with my little Suzuki. Am I correct?
    Hebrew and Aramaic expressions are introduced to us in the Gospel of John. And everytime John uses one, he interprets for us what they mean. That is how we know that his name means "stone." The Bible (specifically John), tells us that is what it means. Your argument is self-defeating. Here it is again:

    John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
    It was a play on words. Jesus is the rock; Peter is the stone. Jesus was pointing out the difference between him and Peter (a stone).
     
  11. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    St. Andrews is also a Methodist University in Scotland. At least the board of truties for the School of Divinity
     
  12. Aash

    Aash New Member

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    I want to say just because you commented on my thoughts doesn’t mean your right. DHK you keep saying that Peter name means little stone. And I beg to differ. I have listed numerous Protestant Biblical Scholars that agree with me on this point. Please don’t take offense but on this point of Peter being the Rock, I would tend to believe the Biblical Scholars then someone on a forum.

    All these Protestant Biblical Scholars are, sincere and are they are respectable as scholars in insisting upon the obvious evidence in their conclusions on Matt 16.

    (Lutheran) Gerhardt Meier in the book, The End of the Historical Critical Method, on pg 58-60 says:

    "Nowadays a broad consensus has emerged which, in accordance with the words of the text applies the promise to Peter as a person. On this point liberal (H. J. Holtzmann, E. Schweiger) and conservative (Cullmann, Flew) theologians agree, as well as representatives of Roman Catholic exegesis."

    "With all due respect to the Protestant Reformers, we must admit that the promise in Matthew 16-18 is directed to Peter and not to a Peter-like faith. As Evangelical theologians, especially, we ought to look at ourselves dispassionately and acknowledge that we often tend unjustifiably toward an individualistic conception of faith. To recognize the authenticity of Matthew 16:17 and following demands that we develop a Biblically based ecclesiology or doctrine of the church."

    "the church He's talking about is the one, holy, Catholic Church, the universal church and the rock on which it will be built is Peter, not Peter's confession and the keys that Jesus gives to Peter are keys not only to teach but even to absolve sins."

    William F. Albright and C.S. Mann in the Anchor Bible on pg 195 says:

    "Rock (Aram. Kepha). This is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times. On building on a rock, or from a rock. Peter as Rock will be the foundation of the future community (I will build). Jesus, not quoting the OT, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only Aramaic word which would serve his purpose. In view of the background of vs. 19 (see below), one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as meaning the faith, or the Messianic confession, of Peter. To deny the pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian community is a denial of the evidence. Cf. in this gospel 10:2; 14:28-31; 15:15. The interest in Peter's failures and vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence; rather, it emphasizes it. Had Peter been a lesser figure his behavior would have been of far less consequence (cf. Gal 2:11ff)."

    RT France in his commentary on pg 925 says: Look, it's only because we Protestants have over-reacted to the Catholic Church that we are not frank and sincere in admitting the fact that Peter is the Rock. He is the foundation stone upon which Jesus is going to build the Church.
     
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Aash,
    Here are a few points to consider.
    Scholarship isn't everything. Almost all the "scholars" you listed are liberal in their outlook. I don't see any conservative scholars that you quoted. Thus your conclusions are already skewed just by the type of references that you quoted. It is like trying to prove the Bible true by quoting only from atheists. It doesn't work.

    Secondly, the Bible interprets itself. Why deny what the Bible says? Here is what the Bible says:

    John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

    Where God Himself calls Peter or Cephas, meaning stone, a stone, why should I believe anyone else. God has the final say. God calls him a stone. It is written right here in Scripture. I need no further evidence. You could quote me a thousand scholars, but God and I make a majority. The Word of God declares very plainly that Cephas (elsewhere Peter) means stone. I need no other evidence. I believe God.
     
  14. Aash

    Aash New Member

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    I believe another point that is important about Peter being the Rock is why did Jesus change Simon the Fisherman’s name to Peter(Kephas/Rock). (note: in the NT James and John were nicknamed Sons of thunder by Jesus but that was never regularly used in place of their original name, it was not their new names. But Peter definitely replaced Simon as his new name.) Now Jesus was not just giving Simon a meaningless gesture.

    In Scripture, we find that when God revealed a new and radical calling to certain of his people, he sometimes changed their names. Giving a new name meant that the statue of the person was changed. In particular, this is true in the calling of the patriarchs. Abram ("exalted father" in Hebrew) was changed to Abraham ("father of the multitudes"); Jacob ("supplanter") was changed to Israel ("one who prevails with God"). This should sound familiar, because as you know Jesus changes Simon’s name to Peter(Rock).

    There is an interesting parallel between Abraham and Peter. Abraham and Peter had their names changed. (Abram-Abraham and Simon-Peter) And Abraham and Peter are both referred to as Rock. At the inception of the great Abrahamic covenant, God says He set up a rock from which the nation of Israel was hewn. Isaiah 51:1–2 says: “Hearken to me, you who pursue deliverance, you who seek the Lord; look to the rock (Kepha) from which you were hewn. . . . Look to Abraham your father. Then in Matt 16:18, “You are Peter(Kepha/Rock) and on this rock I will build my Church.

    Now the people in this forum might understand Matt 16 but the Jewish listeners would immediately understand the import of Jesus’ words, richly couched in their Jewish heritage. The parallels were drawn between Abraham and Peter: name changes to designate new statuses, the designations of both as “rock”, and both standing at the fountainhead of the two major covenants of God with his people. In each case God began with one person to achieve a much larger goal.

    Here are some Protestant Biblical Scholars who also see this.
    (Methodist) Ivor H Jones in his book the gospel of Matthew on pg 99 says:

    "...in 16.18 Peter is the rock on which the new community could be built, as Abraham was described in rabbinic writings as the rock on which God could erect a new world to replace the old....The arguments have raged across the centuries over the phrase 'on this rock' : does it mean on Peter, or on Peter's confession? But the text is clear: Peter was divinely inspired and this was the reason for his new function and the basis of his authorization. His function was to provide for Jesus Christ the beginnings of a stronghold, a people of God, to stand against all the powers of evil and death...They are God's people, the church...as the church they represent God's sovereign power over evil (18.18b) and rely upon a new kind of divine authorization...This authorization is given to Peter; so Peter is not only a stronghold against evil; he also is responsible for giving the community shape and direction."

    (Presbyterian) Francis Wright Beare says in the book the Gospel According to Matthew:

    "The play on words -- 'Peter', this 'rock' -- requires a change in Greek from petros (properly, 'stone') to petra. In Aramaic, the two words would be identical -- Kepha the name given to Peter, transliterated into Greek as Kephas (Gal. 2:9), and kepha, 'rock'. The symbol itself is Hebraic: Abraham is the 'rock' from which Israel was hewn, and in a rabbinic midrash, God finds in him a rock on which he can base and build the world..."

    (Disciples of Christ) M. Eugene Boring in the New Interpreter’s Bible pg 345 says:

    "16:18, Peter as Rock. Peter is the foundation rock on which Jesus builds the new community. The name 'Peter' means 'stone' or 'rock' (Aramaic Kepha Cepha; Greek petros).... There are no documented instances of anyone's ever being named 'rock' in Aramaic or Greek prior to Simon. Thus English translations should render the word 'stone' or 'rock,' not 'Peter,' which gives the false impression that the word represented a common name and causes the contemporary reader to miss the word play of the passage: 'You are Rock, and on this rock I will build my church.' Peter is here pictured as the foundation of the church....On the basis of Isa 51:1-2 (cf. Matt 3:9), some scholars have seen Peter as here paralleled to Abraham; just as Abram stood at the beginning of the people of God, had his name changed, and was called a rock, so also Peter stands at the beginning of the new people of God and receives the Abrahamic name 'rock' to signify this."

    (Presbyterian/Reformed )Thomas G. Long in his book Matthew on pg 185-186:

    "Since, in the original Greek, Petros and petra both mean 'rock,' it is easy to spot this statement as a pun, a play on words: 'Your name is "Rock," and on this "rock" I will build my church.' Jesus' meaning is plain: Peter is the rock, the foundation, upon which he is going to erect his church...Jesus spoke Aramaic, however, not Greek. In Aramaic, the words for 'Peter' and 'rock' are the same (Kepha)...the most plausible interpretation of the passage is that Jesus is, indeed, pointing to Peter as the foundation stone, the principal leader, of this new people of God...there is much evidence that he also played a primary leadership role in the early Christian church....For the church, the new people of God, Peter was, indeed, the 'rock,' corresponding to Abraham of old, who was 'the rock from which you were hewn'

    (Brethren/Mennonite) Richard B. Gardner in his Commentary on pg 247 says:

    "The key question here is whether the rock foundation of the church is Peter himself, or something to be distinguished from Peter. If the latter, Jesus could be speaking of Peter's faith, or of the revelation Peter received. It is more likely, however, that the rock on which Jesus promises to build the church is in fact Peter himself, Peter the first disciple (cf. 4:18; 10:2), who represents the whole group of disciples from which the church will be formed.”
     
  15. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Aash, what does it mean if Peter is the rock? I've seen others comment on this, but not you, unless I missed it. I asked earlier and you said you'd answer when you were ready. Most people on the BB if they are making a big point on something are willing to go into it.

    You seem to be really heavy duty into this, so I'm wondering what your interpretation of Peter being the rock is, seeing as you are not Roman Catholic.
     
  16. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    I really don't understand why it is so offensive to think that Jesus might be referring to Peter. Saying that Peter=the rock does not entail papal infallibility or apostolic succession. I think Jesus is merely indicating that Peter would be the initial, primary leader in establishing the church. The book of Acts bears this out. Peter was functionally the head apostle.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I disagree with you completely because Scripture disagrees with you.
    You can cite all the authorities you want. They are meaningless in the light of Scripture. Note your so-called authorities. There is not a single conservative Baptist quoted. Why? Certainly you would never quote any IFB source! To use the same illustration--you can't prove the deity of Christ using literature produced by atheists. Your sources are thus meaningless.

    John MacArthur is conservative in his outlook. I don't agree with him in many things. He is not dispensational. I disagree there. He is very Calvinistic. I disagree there. He is covenantal in his theology. I disagree there. He believes in a universal church. I disagree there. There are many areas where I disagree with MacArthur, and those are just a few major ones. But he is a conservative scholar. Here is a five part series on the "church" where you can find out his view on Mat.16:18
    http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/9672

    Near the bottom of the first message is an icon which will direct you to the second part of the message, etc.

    Now look at Scripture--not your sources. I would rather you deal with Scripture and not come back just quoting your sources. The Bible is our final authority.

    John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
    --Is there a reason that you keep on ignoring the definition that Jesus himself gives to Peter or Kephas. It is he that defines Cephas. And it his definition that we must use.

    Now who is the foundation of the church?
    1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    --Christ is the foundation. There is no other foundation. The Bible makes this clear. Peter is out of the picture. The only foundation that we have is Christ.

    1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
    --The Rock is Christ; the stone is Peter. Scripture is consistent on this.

    Ephesians 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
    --The chief corner stone was the massive rock upon which the entire foundation was set. The foundation could not be set without this rock. Jesus, throughout the Scripture, is referred to as the "chief corner stone." Without it the rest of the foundation could never be built. Upon that rock was built the rest of the foundation--all of the apostles and prophets, and then each believer after that.

    1 Peter 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
    --Here again is Christ called the chief corner stone--a massive rock. Believe on him and be saved.

    1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
    But the Jews rejected the Messiah, the chief corner stone. He is precious to us. But they rejected Him. He is our Rock.

    1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
    --He is not only a stone, but a rock. In fact he is always a rock. Emphasis is used here. The Jews rejected this rock; they found Christ offensive, and therefore crucified him.

    Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
    --No doubt Peter was referring back to the words of Jesus Himself. Jesus refers to Himself as the head of the corner, the chief corner stone.
    So, Peter, three times in 1Peter chapter two refers to Christ as the rock, and not himself. Guess who is the rock? Peter considered Christ to be the rock, and not himself.

    What was Jesus referring to in Mat.21:42. It was the fulfillment of a prophecy. Here it is:
    Psalms 118:22-23 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
    --This prophecy was about Christ. Again he would be that massive rock that would be called the chief corner stone. It would not be Peter. It would be Christ. Christ spoke of Himself as the fulfillment of this prophecy, not Peter.

    When we consider only Scripture the case is airtight. Christ is the rock of our salvation. He is the foundation of the church. It cannot be any other way.
     
  18. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    This verse actually supports his claim about the use of Kepha for Peter and that there was no distinction between Large Stone and small stone unless translated into greek.
     
  19. Aash

    Aash New Member

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    If you say that Jesus can only be the foundation, you start with a big handicap because as you know there is biblical evidence for other things to be referred to as “a foundation.” You can’t interchange descriptive figures of speech willy-nilly between different illustrations (commonly called “mixing metaphors.”) I believe mixing metaphors does great violence to each textual illustration and is a good example of poorly “dividing the word of truth” (2 Tim 2:15). In the metaphorical description in Matthew 16, Jesus couldn’t be the foundation—he clearly states he is the builder, not the foundation! Builders lay foundations, they are not the foundation.

    1 Cor 3:10-11, “Like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." Paul didn’t claim to have laid the foundation of the universal Church, only the foundation of the local Church at Cornith. Thus he is speaking of Christ as the foundation of the local, not the universal, Church.

    Someone can go beyond the literal meaning of the passage and expand it to include the universal Church, but not without taking into account everything else the NT has to say about the Church’s foundation. Also since 1 Cor 3 in only 1 of 5 places where the Church’s foundation is discussed, and in them the same metaphor is never used twice.

    Then in 1 Pet 2:6 where Is 28:16 is applied to Christ. But the word for "stone" here isn’t petros (the name Jesus gave Peter (John 1:42)) it’s lithos, a completely different word. (Lithos is the everyday word for stone; petros is an uncommon synonym, which makes its use as Peter’s name and in Matthew 16:18 all the more striking.)

    More important, in 1 Pet 2:6 Jesus is the Church’s cornerstone, not its foundation. A cornerstone is only one piece of a foundation (the corner part of it), and this doesn’t exclude other pieces.

    Do you want proof? Ephesians 2:20, which says the household of God is "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone."

    The prophets here are not the writers of the Old Testament but prophets of the New Testament age, as made clear by the two other references to them in the epistle (Eph. 3:5, 4:11).

    Together with the apostles, they form the Church’s foundation in this passage, which was written by the same apostle who wrote 1 Corinthians 3:11, showing there was no contradiction in his mind between Christ being the foundation in one sense and others being the foundation in another.
     
  20. Aash

    Aash New Member

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    In Revelation 21:14, where New Jerusalem is said to have not one foundation, but twelve, with the names of the apostles. This is a select group, including only the eleven who were apostles during Christ’s earthly ministry, plus Matthias (Acts 1:26). Not even Paul and Barnabas, who also were called apostles (Acts 14:14), were members of the Twelve.

    Matthew 16:18: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

    In 1 Corinthians 3, Christ is the foundation of the local Church. In 1 Peter 2, Christ is the cornerstone of the Church. In Ephesians 2, Christ is the cornerstone with the apostles and New Testament prophets as the foundation. In Revelation 21, the foundation is the Twelve. And in Matthew 16, the rock is Peter.
     
    #40 Aash, Jan 4, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2009
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