PFWB

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by DeclareHim, Aug 4, 2004.

  1. DeclareHim

    DeclareHim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,062
    Likes Received:
    0
    What do you guys think of the Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church. :confused:

    Do they practise the use of the gifts or do they just believe in the gifts.
     
  2. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,427
    Likes Received:
    72
    I don't know first hand, but typically any church with Pentecostal in the name will be quite active with respect to the charismata.
     
  3. rsr

    rsr
    Expand Collapse
    <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    10,074
    Likes Received:
    102
    "The Heavenly Father in His wisdom has bestowed a diversity of gifts upon His church for the building up of His Kingdom. We believe that it is the privilege of the Spirit-baptized believers to enjoy the benefits of spiritual gifts-wisdom, knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, divers kinds of tongues, and the interpretation of tongues, and that these gifts are separate and apart from the baptism with the Holy Ghost. Recognizing the inherent spiritual capacity of men and the work of grace that is shared by all believers, we should cherish these manifold endowments and desire to bring each to full development, that the whole body may be fitly framed together by that which each member supplies (I Corinthians 12:1-11). We believe that these gifts are resident in the Holy Ghost and that He uses them severally as He wills and through whom He wills."

    — Faith and Practice (Article 6)
     
  4. Ben W

    Ben W
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    8,868
    Likes Received:
    0
    Theologically I think they sound pretty good. [​IMG]
     
  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Baptist is the footnote. Pentecostal is what they really are.

    Historic Baptists would repudiate this false doctrine.
     
  6. paidagogos

    paidagogos
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    Read the following excerpt taken from their history on the official PFWB website (http://www.pfwb.org/history.htm):

    "Because of the doctrinal disputes, the break with other Free Will Baptists of non-Pentecostal persuasion came. Our churches did not enjoy a close fellowship with other denominational bodies for many years. Today our identification is more with the Holiness and Pentecostal bodies than with the non-Pentecostal Free Will Baptist groups. This is evidenced by our membership in the Pentecostal Fellowship of North America and its successor organization."

    I lived in eastern NC for a number of years and learned somewhat about the PFWB. They are definitely more Pentecostal than Baptist. Also, Dr. O. Talmadge Spence, who left the PFWB and later founded Foundations Bible College, was a good friend.
     
  7. Ben W

    Ben W
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    8,868
    Likes Received:
    0
    Throughout the history of the church God has raised up various people and movements to revive the church, The Anabaptists, Lutheran, Reformation, Calvin. The Pentecostal Charasmatic movement are the movement that God has raised up in our time, like the other historical moves, this group has much enthusiasm about Christianity and are Baptising millions across the world, while many supposedly evangelical churches are in fact falling asleep.
     
  8. paidagogos

    paidagogos
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    What you said is a truism but it is not necessarily true. There have been many movements across history that God has used. On the other hand, what you failed to recognize and say is just as important or more so. Concurrent with the movements used of God, there have been other innumerable movements that were heretical, which dammed men's souls to Hell.

    Where is your evidence that the Charismatic movement is of God and is revitalizing the church? The Mormons, on the other hand, are thriving but no true Christian would ever dare suggest this is of God. On the basis of sound Biblical doctrine, I say you are sadly mistaken.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. DeclareHim

    DeclareHim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,062
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have no problem with carismatics as long as they are winning people for Christ put enough emphasis on God's Word and are encouraging faithful living and personal evangelism.
     
  10. Ben W

    Ben W
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    8,868
    Likes Received:
    0
    What you said is a truism but it is not necessarily true. There have been many movements across history that God has used. On the other hand, what you failed to recognize and say is just as important or more so. Concurrent with the movements used of God, there have been other innumerable movements that were heretical, which dammed men's souls to Hell.

    Where is your evidence that the Charismatic movement is of God and is revitalizing the church? The Mormons, on the other hand, are thriving but no true Christian would ever dare suggest this is of God. On the basis of sound Biblical doctrine, I say you are sadly mistaken.

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Regarding evidence, lets have a look at the Primary Documents relating to the Doctrine of the PFWB, Have a look at their website where their doctrinal statement is, and tell me what is it that is not Sound Doctrine in there?
     
  11. paidagogos

    paidagogos
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I do have a problem with your conditional statement even if the condition, which it is not, is true. This sentimental pabulum is a modern, humanistic gospel where man is primary. Such thinking is in and of itself un-Christian—it is humanistic. It follows closely the Jesuit idea of the end justifies the means. If this be true, then the Inquisition was a good thing if it saved men’s souls.

    The most important thing is God and His glory. All men are sinners rightfully and justly deserving of eternal damnation in Hell. Only by the grace, mercy, and goodness of God can man escape his just reward. To accept and tolerate heresy supposedly on the basis of winning souls at the cost of disobeying and dishonoring God is pure folly and wickedness. Our duty is to obey God and glorify Him. After all, salvation of the lost is God’s doing and not ours. We are to be faithful (cf. I Cor. 3 & 4, especially 3:6) but God produces the fruit with or without us. Often, we think God is dependent on us to win the lost. Such is prideful and sinful thinking. Again, our duty is simply to be obedient and faithful leaving the rest to God. God does command us to be a witness while He does the rest.

    Finally, I challenge your condition—“if they are . . . . .” The Charismatics would be a hoot except it is so serious and pitiful. I’ve watched Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Kenneth Copland, et. al. as well as read their books from time to time. They’re preaching heresy! Yes, they do teach some truth, as do the RC’s, JW’s, Seventh Day Adventists, et. al., but much, if not most, of their teaching is rank heresy! I’ve noticed that they do not generally give a clear presentation of the Gospel and plead for salvation of the sinner. Instead, they talk about healing, wealth, happiness, etc. This is purely an appeal to human nature—it is humanistic. Man, not God, is the chief end of this kind of religion. There is almost a total absence of preaching repentance and salvation.

    So, I conclude that the seekers are not coming to Christ for salvation; rather they are seeking an experience, solutions to their problems, or something to make life meaningful. The lost sinner coming to Christ is seeking forgiveness of sins, not all the temporal, humanistic garbage offered by the Charismatics. After salvation, a man may still have his problems—he may still be in debt or his wife may not come back to him or his kids may still use drugs or he may still have his bunions. God promised to save us through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ but He did not promise to pay off our credit cards, bring back the wife we drove away, rehabilitate our kid’s drug problem, or relieve our bunions.

    It is common knowledge that Charismatic churches experience an appalling turnover. IMHO, this is indicative of those who professed but were never saved as described in I John. I don’t think Charismatics are getting as many people saved as it would appear. They are being sold a counterfeit bill of goods. True, many people are turning out for the circus and the emotional experience with the promise of health and wealth but few are saved. (Let me clarify that I do believe some, if not many, Charismatics are saved but many, if not most, are not.) As Jesus said of the Pharisees, they make the convert seven times more the child of Hell. IMHO, this is wicked and dangerous.

    Furthermore, they value experience as much as God's Word and they do not emphasize holy living in that they accept and tolerate almost any lifestyle. BTW, just how much do you know about the Charismatics? :confused:
     
  12. paidagogos

    paidagogos
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    What you said is a truism but it is not necessarily true. There have been many movements across history that God has used. On the other hand, what you failed to recognize and say is just as important or more so. Concurrent with the movements used of God, there have been other innumerable movements that were heretical, which dammed men's souls to Hell.

    Where is your evidence that the Charismatic movement is of God and is revitalizing the church? The Mormons, on the other hand, are thriving but no true Christian would ever dare suggest this is of God. On the basis of sound Biblical doctrine, I say you are sadly mistaken.

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Regarding evidence, lets have a look at the Primary Documents relating to the Doctrine of the PFWB, Have a look at their website where their doctrinal statement is, and tell me what is it that is not Sound Doctrine in there?
    </font>[/QUOTE]First of all, do you understand the difference between the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements? It seems that you are confusing the two. PFWB are of the old line Pentecostal movement, not Charismatic. Dr. O. Talmadge Spence, who founded their Bible college, wrote a book repudiating the Charismatic movement. Dr. Spence was a strong separatist of the BJU variety. His father, H. T. Spence, was a Pentecostal Holiness Bishop. O. Talmadge taught for years at Holmes Seminary, old line PH, in Greenville, SC. The Pentecostal Holiness, as well as the PFWB, grew out of the Holiness movement. The modern Charismatic movement has a separate and different origin, although having the tongues and healing doctrines in common. Holiness doctrines are pretty much missing in Charismatic circles.

    The old line Pentecostals were fundamental in their basic doctrine except for the aberration on healing, tongues, and sanctification. On the other hand, there’s too many heresies to catalog in the Charismatic circles. You have everything from Word of Faith heresies to heretical teaching on the Trinity. So, PFWB, although wrong on tongues and sanctification, is not heretical in the sense that the Charismatic movement is. Even though there’s much more that could be said, nuff said.

    Here’s what is wrong with the PFWB beliefs:
    (1) Sanctification as a second work of grace.
    (2) Baptist of the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues
    (3) Divine physical healing promised along with salvation

    This is not sound doctrine!

    If you don’t believe me, read it in their own words below taken from their own book of Faith and Practices.


    B. Entire Sanctification
    We believe that entire sanctification is the act of God, subsequent to regeneration by which believers are made free from original sin, or moral depravity, and are brought into a state of complete devotement to God and renunciation of self-reliance (I John 1:7; Romans 6:6-7, 11; Galatians 2:20; I Thessalonians 5:23-24). Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10:10; 13:12, 20-21), is wrought instantaneously (Romans 6:6, 11; Galatians 2:20, 6:14; Ephesians 4:20-24; Colossians 2:11), is preceded by entire consecration (Romans 6:13, 16, 19; 12:1-2; I Thessalonians 4:3-4), and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness in perfect love (Romans 15:16; I John 4:13-21).
    We believe that there is a marked distinction between a pure heart (entirely sanctified) and mature character. The former (the pure heart) is obtained in an instant; the latter is the result of growth in grace. Entire sanctification includes the impulse to grow in grace which must be consciously nurtured, and careful attention given to the requisites and processes of spiritual development and improvement in Christ-likeness of character and personality (II Peter 1:4, 3:18). Without such purposeful endeavor the sanctified believer's witness may be impaired and the grace itself frustrated and ultimately lost (II Peter 1:9-10; 3:17).
    C. Baptism of the Holy Ghost
    We believe that the baptism of the Holy Ghost may be obtained by a definite act of appropriating faith on the part of the fully cleansed believer. This is not an impossible condition, but an imperative command (Eph. 5:18), and that the first evidence of the reception of this experience is the speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance (Luke 11:13; Acts 1:5; 2:1-4; 8:17).
    D. Divine Healing
    We believe that the Bible teaches that the healing provided in the atonement is both spiritual and physical. This is conclusive from the interpretation of Isaiah 53:4, 5 and also Matthew 8:16, 17. In the Great Commission for the proclamation of the Gospel in all the world, the healing of the body is promised along with the salvation of the soul.
    People were healed in the Old Testament. They were healed in the New Testament and we believe that people are and can be healed today.
    Sickness and suffering are the result of sin. That is, there never would have been any sickness and death if the human race had not fallen into sin. We would not say, however, that all sickness is the direct result of sin, but sin certainly is directly or indirectly responsible for it. But the same Christ who can deliver from sin can if it pleases Him deliver from sickness.
    While it is God's highest will for His people to anoint, lay hands on and pray for the healing of the sick, we do not believe that the Bible teaches that there is anything morally wrong with taking medicine, or receiving human aid, if one is not able to fully trust the Lord. We believe healing is God's promise and privilege to those who will receive it, rather than a command that must be obeyed (James 5:14, 15).
     
  13. Ben W

    Ben W
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    8,868
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with you where you point out the statement that they state the evidence of Baptism in the Holy Spirit is speaking in toungues - Luke 11:13, Acts 1:5, 2:1-4, 8:17.

    As I see it, a person is Baptised in the Holy Spirit at his conversion. Speaking in Toungues is A gift, not one that is given to everyone, many members in the body yet serving with different gifts. Toungues should also be known languages in the world, not jibberish.

    On point D, divine healing I am stuck there and have to fall on there side even though I am well aware of people that have been prayed for and not healed. Yet on the other side of the coin I have been healed and have seen it happen to others. James is a good reference that they have provided, it does say that if people are annointed and prayed for by the Elders they will be healed. James was written for the church of today, the letter came into use in the latter part of the early church, Healing is promised there.

    On the first point on Sanctification, this was taught in some way by John Wesley who stated that the two most fundamental doctrines in Christianity are being born again and that of Justification, yet both happen at the same time although they are two seperate things. Hence there is a case that although they happen at the same time, they are two works. Wesley pointed out that we grow in the New Birth and follow Knowledge and new feelings as a part of this process.
     
  14. paidagogos

    paidagogos
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    However, divine healing is not a part of salvation. It is rather a sovereign act of God of His own will and choosing. God has promised to save whomsoever will believe. However, He has not promised to heal everyone and He does not.
     
  15. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    9,639
    Likes Received:
    310
    My only observations on this thread are a few questions and a comment.
    Since when has God called us to be successful?
    Has He not called us to simply be faithful to Him and His Word?
    Is it not written that God giveth the increase?
    If God has reserved to Himself the prerogative of judging a man's success, the best we can do (and even this is very flawed) is evaluate how faithful he is to God's Word. In other words, we dare not use a man's or movement's numbers as the basis for judgeing them successful or saying God's Hand of Blessing is upon it.
     

Share This Page

Loading...