So, what makes a man free then is not just his ability to act according to his desires, but his ability to know the difference from right and wrong, is that correct? I still fail to see how this is any real distinction considering that dog can be taught the difference between right and wrong...you know that if you have a dog who hides from you after messing on the floor or tearing up something. According to you what makes a choice free/undetermined is simply "choosing according to what one desires," but that means nothing in a system were the desires themselves are determined. Regardless of whether a choice is deemed "moral" or not this doesn't affect its "freeness." You have only simply proven that people and animals choices are both as equally determined and the only difference is that man is held morally accountable. Scripture. I need to read the text that teaches men are unable to believe the gospel. You can answer this one on the other thread... Yes or no. Supposing you lied yesterday at noon. Could you have resisted that tempation to lie? Could you have "not lied." Trust me, this is not "immaterial" to our discussion. This is at the very root of our discussion and it cannot be avoided.