Pictoral Chart of Revelation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by sanderson1769, Nov 10, 2006.

  1. sanderson1769

    sanderson1769
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  2. EdSutton

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    Yep! Shore is!

    "Smash yo' TV, and listen to MY sermons! Until next, time- " 'Sandy' :rolleyes:

    Ed
     
  3. Amy.G

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    Don't feed the trolls. :sleep:
     
  4. skypair

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    Pastor Steven,

    I have a few comments:

    You say we go through tribulation but not through God's wrath -- yet the tribulation scriptures you cite do NOT confirm that we go through "THE tribulation" "such as never was nor ever shall be."

    And then you don't cite even one scripture saying that we escape God's wrath.

    Truth be told, there is no scripture the promises we will escape ONLY God's wrath which you assume is a particular part of the tribulation. In fact, 1Thes 5:9 says, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,..." That is, in place of receiving the wrath of men/seals, wrath of Satan/trumpets and wrath of God/bowls we will receive salvation of our very bodies in the rapture!!

    Next you overlook that we already see the apostacy and the man of sin -- all rooled up into what we call the Catholic Church. Paul said that it "already worketh." Christ's coming was already imminent -- Simon Magus had already gone to Rome!! Realize this, Steve, the man of sin BECOMES AC, not the reverse.

    The rapture is at the door, friend. YOU are putting the saints to "sleep." YOU are taking away their "crowns," Rev 3:11 (crown of righteousness for loving the Lord's appearing) rather than preparing them for the "glorious appearing!!"

    In item 6, I find it disingeuous that, rather than deal with scriptures that suggest or confirm a pretrib rapture to many of us, you imply that there are none. Do you think you can get away with hiding scriptures -- tearing them out of the Bible -- rather than dealing with them? Here are some you might TRY to explain:

    1) Rev 4:1 -- John clearly taken out before he sees the tribulation events.

    2) Rev 4-5 -- Don't tell me you can't guess who the 24 elders with Christian crowns are who sing the song "Redeemed by the Lamb."

    3) Rev 3:10 -- Jesus promise to keep Philadelphia "out of" the testing of the whole earth --- His warning not to let anyone steal your crown on this issue of taking them out -- and His promises to write the name of His city on them and that they will never leave (the implication being that this is where we go pretrib).

    4) 2Thes 1:5-8 -- You (Thessalonians) are worthy of the kingdom of God (heaven via the rapture) while those who trouble you are "recompensed [with] tribulation" by God on the earth.

    5) Luke 21:36 -- "Watch... pray... that ye be considered worthy to escape all these [tribulation] things coming on the earth and to stand [at the Bema] before the Son of man [instead]." The "snare"shall come on ALL who dwell on the face of the earth -- but we won't be here!!

    Well, there are so many more, but if this really is a teaching ministry rather than a propaganda mill, you ought to consider how you will handle these instances where your ministry is silent so far.

    skypair
     
    #4 skypair, Nov 11, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2006
  5. tinytim

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    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    I second this..........
     
  6. rsr

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    Please confine comments to the subject of the original post.

    Thank you.
     
  7. mcdirector

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    I was just curious as to how you plan to use the chart?
     
  8. Amy.G

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    You don't really think Mr. Anderson will respond do you? He just posts and runs. There is never any discussion.
     
  9. Mel Miller

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    Chart of Revelation

    *********************************************

    Steven,

    You say: "The Truth is so Simple".

    But your chart does not show whether the Trumpets or Plagues are
    part of the tribulation nor why no mention of God's wrath occurs until
    the signs of the 6th Seal occur "after the great tribulation" as Jesus taught. Matt.24:29; Mark 13:24. Are the Trumpets and Plagues part of God's wrath? This omission complicates whatever truth you are trying
    to convey.

    The Chart fails to show what constitutes God's wrath or when it begins!

    Your analysis of second-coming passages recognizes the rapture will
    happen on a single solar Day; but fails to support whatever your view is of the length of "God's Day of Wrath" (less than 3 1/2 years?) !!

    I find nothing "simple" or convincing about your chart or your time for
    the "rapture" which is "stuck" between Seal 6 and the first Trumpet!!!
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :BangHead:
     
  10. gb93433

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    He failed to give credit where he got the images. Plagiarism?
     
  11. npetreley

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    I don't agree with the first part of the chart, but I think you placed the rapture in the right spot.

    Edited to add: Regarding the second link, I agree, and I also agree that it is incredibly simple.
     
    #11 npetreley, Nov 12, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2006
  12. Mel Miller

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    Chart of Revelation

    _____________________________________________________________

    "Incredibly simple" (???) and therefore incredibly confounding as well!

    If it was so simple, why did Jesus say "the Son of Man will gather the
    elect from all extremities of earth to all extremities of heaven AND He
    will send the angels to gather these elect out of all extremities of the
    heavenS in the days (immediately) AFTER the great tribulation"???!!!
    Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29-31.

    This chart's another example that fails to explain why six of the seven
    Trumpet Judgments and six of the seven Bowl-Plagues are NOT just as
    much a part of the great tribulation as five of the seven Seals! This so- called "simple" chart is best seen as evidence of one's "naivete"!! For it
    puts most of the "great tribulation events" from five to 18 months after the End of the Age; but Jesus comes on the very Day Seal Six opens!!!

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net Jesus must come "FOR all the Saints" in
    order to come "WITH all the Saints". I Thess.3:13; I Thess.4:13-17.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :tonofbricks:
     
  13. Herb Evans

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    1.) When did Jesus tell his disciples the rapture would occur? --Steve Anderson

    Mr. Anderson forces these scriptures to be the rapture and asks the question WHEN the rapture would occur but never answers it scripturally. He only interpolates, pontificates, and suggests "when." -- Herb Evans

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    This says nothing of when the rapture occurs. It is indeed after the tribulation, but his says when the stars fall not anything about the when of the rapture. This is a blatant forcing of scripture. -- Herb Evans

    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    This is not the rapture. It is the coming of Christ in power and Great Glory. -- herb Evans

    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    This is a GATHERING TOGETHER of the elect from one end of heaven to the other to do battle not a rapture. -- Herb Evans

    Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

    This is indeed after the tribulation but it is not the rapture; it is events in the heavenly bodies. -- Herb Evans

    Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

    Again, not a rapture but events in the heavens. -- Herb Evans

    Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

    A coming in power and glory on a white horse to do battle, but no rapture. -- Herb Evans

    Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    Again, the elect are gathered from earth AND heaven to do battle. This is not a rapture. -- Herb Evans

    Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

    Again, no rapture here. It is about the sun, the moon, and the stars. -- Herb Evans

    Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

    No rapture here, only the distress of nations. -- Herb Evans

    Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    Again, this is Christ's Second Coming in power and great Glory to do battle not to rapture the saints. -- Herb Evans

    Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

    But who is to look up in this time frame? Jews! Those in Judea and Jerusalem (21:21, 24). Anderson also fails to note that some will ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS (Luke 21:36).

    Saved people will be gone, escaped, when all these things happen. Anderson has not proved his premise; he has only inferred and pontificated it and tried to manipulate Second Coming Scripture to mean the rapture. -- Herb Evans
     
  14. Herb Evans

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    And don't feed the spoilers who resist honest discussion. -- Herb Evans
     
  15. James_Newman

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  16. npetreley

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    There's a big difference between knowing when the rapture will occur in terms of date, and knowing when it will happen in order of events. I think the order of events is very clear.
     
  17. Herb Evans

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    Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Yes, the Gospels hint of the rapture here and in John 14, otherwise it remained a "MYSTERY" until Paul revealed it. People confuse the coming in glory (21:27) with the rapture. Note that it says escape all these things. -- Herb Evans
     
  18. Herb Evans

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    So, what is your order? -- Herb Evans
     
  19. Mel Miller

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    Chart of Revelation

    Herb Evans,

    In post #13 you quoted Mark 13:27:

    "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    Again, the elect are gathered from earth AND heaven to do battle. This is not a rapture. -- Herb Evans
    _______________________________________________________

    The fulfillment of this verse by itself does not accomplish the gathering of the Elect from both earth AND heaven; but only from earth TO heaven! Nor does it say the purpose of the gathering is to do battle!! But it does fit with the promise of Jesus to "bless those who watch" because they expect Him to appear at any moment while armies are set to destroy Israel!!! Rev.16:14-16.

    I suggest that Jesus describes His role in the literal resurrection and
    gathering from the earth of all who believe on the "last day" so as to fulfill His "Father's wish" as well as keep His own promise. John 6:38-40. Can you disallow this event taking place on the very day He comes "to deliver every believer and to destroy all who disobey the Gospel"? 2 Thess.1:5-11. If you have any scriptural evidence that Jesus will NOT fulfill His promise to "all believers" on the Day He comes in glory, may I hear from you?

    I agree that Jesus also "sends the angels to gather the Elect, at the sound of a great trumpet, from all extremities of the heavenS"! Matt.24:31. But it would be impossible for angels to raise us from the dead or to know whom to gather from the earth!! Paul gives the destination of those "gathered unto Jesus"... a "Synagogue" (noun) in the Sky!!! 2 Thess.2:1.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :saint:
     
    #19 Mel Miller, Nov 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 16, 2006
  20. Herb Evans

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    Sorry, but you neglected to read Mark 13:26, which is the Lord's coming in powere and glory-not the rapture. It is THEN that he gathers the elect. Mark 13 matches Mathew 24 in the same time frame. -- Herb Evans
     

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