Piper and Warren: Together for What?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by swaimj, Apr 8, 2010.

  1. swaimj

    swaimj
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    The internet is abuzz over the news that John Piper has invited Rick Warren to the next Desiring God conference. I'm surprised no one has brought this topic up on BB, or maybe I just missed it.

    Anyway, any thoughts?

    I predict that Rick Warren will explain his view of the sovereingty of God and get a standing ovation. Then he'll give an invitation and no one will respond.
     
  2. preachinjesus

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    I think some people (primarily those complaining) have way too much time on their hands and are the kind of people who are only happy when they are angry at something/one.

    I think it is great. Both are wonderful pastors who are making a significant impact for eternity. I am thankful for both. :)
     
  3. asterisktom

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    Another example of our modern downgrade in doctrine. I predict that Warren's message will be more doctrinally sound than he is back home or in his Web material. And many undiscerning people will point to these DG messages and say, "See? He's not so bad."

    Piper did a very foolish thing here, squandering his credibility and abusing the trust many have in him.
     
  4. Dale-c

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    I was very disappointed as well.

    Warren is a politician. He changes his doctrine based on the people he is speaking to.
    Warren preaches another Gospel. Not the true gospel.

    That said, it is not the end of the world, or the end of Piper.
    The good things that Piper has written and said are just as true now as they have ever been.

    The wrong things Piper has said and written are just as wrong now as ever.
    This just points to the fact that we should not put too much confidence in men because they will disappoint.
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    In the more than two decades I have known Bro Warren, I have never seen him "change/water down" his belief. Nor has his church's doctrinal statement changed.

    Now his PRACTICE is not something I'd choose to do or emulate. But to take cheap shots and lie about the man (a friend) is not something I will tolerate. Those attacking my friends are attacking me.

    John Piper is only an acquaintance, not a personal friend. I was raised in Minneapolis and what he has done in an inner city church there is truly amazing. I have not come across any doctrinal issue on which I disagree, save for his non-cessationist tendencies.

    What surprised me more about John was his presenting to the church that a member (non-voting, non-office holding) would not need to be immersed as a believer!! Of course, that was shot down by his own church - they ARE Baptist, after all.

    And am thrilled to see John "reach across the aisles" to folks whose practices would not be that of Bethlehem but still see value in the man and his message.

    Some of the bigotted here might do well to see that we all agree on basic doctrine but we have great differences (and allow latitude) in practice.

    Who knows, next year he might invite MacArthur or Al Mohler . . .
     
  6. asterisktom

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    Mr. Warren has several teachings and practices that put him clearly outside of orthodoxy. An easy example is his PEACE plan, clearly an alternate to our Lord's Great Commission.

    "Warren said that after he prayed to God about how he could reach the world, he found the answer in Matthew 10 and Luke 10, where Jesus sent the apostles out to preach the gospel of the kingdom. Warren says that Jesus told him:

    “There’s a man of peace in every village, in every government, in every business, in every church. ... When you find the man of peace, if he’s open and he’s willing to work with you, you bless him and you start your work there. ... The man of peace is open and influential. ... The man of peace does not have to be a Christian believer. Could be a Muslim. Could be Jewish” (Warren interview with Charlie Rose, Aug. 17, 2006)."
    Source: http://www.wayoflife.org/files/76531e662c41c753f9b231986274547f-82.html

    So according to RW we can now enlist the labors of Jews and Muslims to do the work of Christ. This is beyond the heteredoxy of the social gospel and seeks to make allies out of doctrinal enemies to the gospel of Christ.

    To be against such a man and such a ministry does not make one a bigot -unless you mean the original meaning of the word. Yes, I believe God's work must be done by God's ways (that is, according to Scripture.

    Also, consider the quote above. If we hear of a man who claims to have heard a message from Christ, outside of - and contrary to - Scripture we should immediately be thinking "cultic". Instead (Where is discernment these days!?) we just treat him as another brother in Christ and an honored preacher.
     
    #6 asterisktom, Apr 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2010
  7. Dr. Bob

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    That's humorous. For those who do not understand (and obviously others besides "cloud" are ignorant in the matter) the PEACE plan for missions is
    Plant Churches
    Equip Servant Leaders
    Assist the poor
    Care for the sick
    Educate the next generation

    Isn't that EXACTLY how YOU do missions today?? Amazing that of all the quirky things I disagree with about Rick's methods, the emphasis on missions and the hundreds of lay folks going to Kenya, Rwanda, Haiti (my son just returned in March from Kenya and today from the Navajo Reservation in Shiprock with hundreds of high schoolers) is the least area of conflict!

    You know how we do missions now at our church? Let me share our work in the Baja with six Reformed Baptist works started there:

    Plant Churches - we work on sending godly elders into areas and start local new testament baptist churches. We have targeted 20 more key locations and are open to help when workers are available.

    Equip Servant Leaders - we train leaders in seminaries (starting a new extention school this fall further south than the present one in Ensenada) so that they will not be duped like some of their Anglo compadres. In 2009 we bought 3 computers and more than $1000 worth of texts in Spanish for them.

    Assist the poor - we work with both an orphanage and a special ministry for elderly. Poverty there is unreal. For Christmas we paid for a new roof for one of the churches - I mean, hot tar, tar paper, etc - to stop the leaks of the rainy season. These folks are poor.

    Care for the sick - we send money and supplies to the clinic and hospital there

    Educate the next generation - we have a team going this summer to help build a facility to expand the christian school in one of the churches, adding on a cement block room.

    Pictures available on request.
     
  8. asterisktom

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    The issue is not how you see missions, or how I see missions. It is what RW teaches about it. You didn't say a single word about that - as it is stated in his PEACE plan.

    Oh well. No answer is an answer too.
     
  9. Dr. Bob

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    Ah, I quoted RICK'S PEACE Plan and showed it is exactly the way churches do missions today. This is HIS teaching. That is what I dealt with.

    Then I asked if this is not how YOU do missions, emphasis on the same five areas of planting churches, training leaders, helping the poor, caring for the sick and educating children.

    YOU are the one condemning Rick for emphasizing these aspects of missions, saying (of al things) he was not "orthodox". I just used HIS OWN PEACE PLAN for world missions do show he IS orthodox.

    Sorry you missed it.
     
  10. asterisktom

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    Lets cut to the chase. This is from a fellow "bigot" like me, including an actual quote from Warren (in red) Emphasis mine:
    --------------------------
    Notice the basis of the P.E.A.C.E. Plan is a peace man. But there is more. Warren further inquired of Jesus and Jesus supposedly answered:

    And so I said, “What is the man of peace?” He said, “When you find the man of peace, if he’s open and he’s willing to work with you, you bless him and you start your work there. If the guy’s not open to working with you, you dust the dust off of your shoes and you go to the next villages, ‘cause you can always find someone to work with.” The man of peace is open and influential.

    By the way, it doesn’t have to be a man. It could be a woman. It might be the woman of peace. It might be the elderly grandmother of the village and everybody knows. And here’s the other thing: The man of peace does not have to be a Christian believer. It could be Moslem. It could be Jewish. Because, when Jesus said, “Find the man of peace,” there were no Christians yet. Jesus hadn’t died on the cross. There was no resurrection. He’s just saying, go out and find somebody to work with.
    [7]

    While Pastor Warren believes that his plan to establish the Kingdom of God here on earth was inspired by a conversation with Jesus, it would be important to check out the words of Jesus as recorded in the Scriptures.
    ----------------------------------
    Source:
    http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c57.shtml

    Yes, I know, Bob, you quoted words from RW also. I get that. But that does not negate what he has said above (BTW, I have seen the above several times, so it is not just made up by one disgruntled heresy hunter).

    So - contrary to what you said - this is his teaching, as well. The issue is not that RW doesn't say good things at other times. That was my entire point about his speaking at the upcoming DG conference. He will probably be squeaky clean in his content. Yet he has not disavowed his horrible, unbiblical views as quoted above.

    Who is this "man of peace" according to Warren? A person who is merely "open", "willing to work with" him. These may be the words of Warren's imaginary Jesus, but it is not from the biblical Christ. I am assuming that this same imaginary Jesus encouraged RW in his belief that there are actually 2 billion Christians in the world at this time.

    I cannot say "Sorry you missed it." because I suspect (I hope I am wrong) that you knew about these comments of your friend, and are trying to just downplay them.
     
    #10 asterisktom, Apr 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2010
  11. Dr. Bob

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    Appreciate your understanding where I'm coming from. Trying to look at the "big picture".

    Rick goes into nations like Rwanda and works with the existing government, most of whom are non-christian. He works with hospitals, many of which are Catholic. He works with Christian and non-christian.

    But only with Christians in the "church" aspect, but in the "social" aspect or "moral" aspect, he works with everyone.

    Is that not exactly what we do? I work with the government (I am an elected republican) and many are not christian. But on social issues and moral issues I cooperate with them.

    I work with the pro-life movement. The biggest groups are not Baptist, but rather Mormon and Catholic. But this is a moral/social issue and I work and give money, etc, with everyone.

    I work with the AIDS program and Habitat for Humanity and the Rescue Mission. Again, with all stripes of people, only a few of which are born again.

    That is what Rick is doing, only on a nation-wide scale. Find good men and work with them on education, poverty, AIDS, etc. But when it comes to church planting/training pastors, he is Southern Baptist all the way.

    You and I both make the same distinctions as Rick, yet when he says openly what he is doing - that it DOESN'T have to be a Christian man or a Christian program - he is condemned.

    Makes me wonder if my church is the only one on the BB that does this same thing??
     
  12. asterisktom

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    Apples and oranges. I don't - and I'm pretty sure you don't - claim Christ is giving out these missionary guidelines. Warren is. He said "Christ told me...". That - by divine association - makes what Christ (supposedly) said a Christian doctrine.

    That is where I am coming from. It s not about me grousing about our neighborly charity to the less fortunate unsaved.

    RW is "condemned" for claiming Christ's authority for an unChristian, unbiblical missionary strategy.
     
    #12 asterisktom, Apr 11, 2010
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  13. Benjamin

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    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5555324196046364882#

    He said, that as a Pastor he went to the Word looking for missionary guidelines. This was after 27 minutes of context which is being overlooked. I see nowhere where you can justify this "condemnation" on the grounds which you claim to be coming from.

    Please give the minute and seconds where RW said, "Christ told me"...

    P.S. Claiming Christ's authority???
     
    #13 Benjamin, Apr 11, 2010
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  14. asterisktom

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    No I don't need to do that. You have the wrong link.
     
  15. Dr. Bob

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    Ok. Don't agree with that at all. His 5-point message is exactly what Jesus taught and put in 21st Century terms.

    Plant the churches
    Train the leaders
    Help the poor
    Heal the sick
    Teach the children

    Hundreds of Scriptures on request.

    'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

    Sadly most of us ifb'ers have basically relegated everything to "soul winning". If a missionary isn't preaching and starting church, then he doesn't get our nickel.

    My association with Southern Baptists woke me up. For the first time I realized the ifb movement was hardly a blip on the radar of Baptists. And that Baptists had hospitals and orphanages and soup kitchens and emergency response teams and clothing centers and shelters for battered women and colleges and America's best seminaries, and a thousand other SOCIAL and MORAL works in addition to the SPIRITUAL work of church planting.

    I had always been taught that the LIBERALS did that and fundamentalists just preached. Balogna. I was wrong. The liberals ONLY do good works and that is not far enough. The fundamentalists (broad brush but you get the pix) do the preaching and THAT IS NOT FAR ENOUGH either.

    We can't leave good undone. I am so glad my eyes were opened to broader obedience and work in the Kingdom of God NOW (now just waiting for a millennium). We ARE in the Kingdom and have Kingdom Work that must be done.

    End of rant!!
     
  16. Benjamin

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    I have the link taken off your reference which is using the very context you speak of...and it does not say what you said RW said.


    ...and are condemning him for.
     
    #16 Benjamin, Apr 11, 2010
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  17. asterisktom

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    Here are some other links, all of which give details about the unbiblical aspect of his P.E.A.C.E. plan:
    http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c57.shtml
    http://www.wayoflife.org/database/peaceplan.html
    http://www.inthenameofpurpose.org/
    http://www.crossroad.to/Excerpts/books/in-name-of-purpose/hartzell/introduction.htm
    http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/peace-un.htm
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/october/17.32.html

    Also in these I saw real gems like the one below.

    "I happen to know people who are followers of Christ in other religions." —Rick Warren*

    I am done here. I have other things to do. Either one sees these things about RW or one doesn't. My conscience is clear.
     
  18. asterisktom

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    Just to be clear: I am not just condemning his claiming Christ told him these things. My main point against him is his polluting of the uniqueness of the Gospel message and his astounding lack of confidence in that message.
     
  19. asterisktom

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    I'll give the last word to you. Not going to bother reading this. I can't put my eyes in your head.

    edit:
    OK. I lied. I read it. : ) and I pretty much agree with most of it.

    So that is a good quitting point.
    Take care.
     
    #19 asterisktom, Apr 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2010
  20. Benjamin

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    Your quote referenced from above:

    “There’s a man of peace in every village, in every government, in every business, in every church. ... When you find the man of peace, if he’s open and he’s willing to work with you, you bless him and you start your work there. ... The man of peace is open and influential. ... The man of peace does not have to be a Christian believer. Could be a Muslim. Could be Jewish” (Warren interview with Charlie Rose, Aug. 17, 2006)."


    You went on to say on the same subject:



    I reference from the source which includes your quote from the, “(Warren interview with Charlie Rose, Aug. 17, 2006)." http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5555324196046364882 …And I addressed your grounds for condemnation and what you say RW said, to include, “Christ told me…” and “claiming Christ’s authority”. ...I asked about the context in which you made the claim; not asking for a smokescreen of other topics, BTW.

    But seems your main point (where you are coming from in your condemnation) has now changed. The back peddling begins:


    I simply asked you to substantiate what you said were RW’s claims on the subject for which you were condemning him for. (Exhibits A&B)

    You can’t, you say you “don’t need to do that” and suggest I used the wrong link (I did not; it is the very topic concerning “your” claims of RW’s claims.) So rather than try to substantiate your prior claims any further, you’d probably be better off to just run on this one.


    If you say so…cya..

    On that point...my work here is done. :wavey:

     

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