Please explain the difference between Monergism and Rocks Crying Out

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Jan 16, 2010.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    Scripture speaks of God making the rocks cry out if we do not praise Him.

    Can someone explain the difference between a monergistic view of salvation and this second option of God making the rocks to cry out?

    Are we just a better looking than rocks? Why do you suppose God didn't just go with option 2 in the first place and spare all those billions of people being tormenting in hell for eternity?
     
  2. canadyjd

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    From Luke 19:37-40 "And as He was now approaching, near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to praise God joyfully with a loud voice for all the miracles which they had seen, (38) saying, 'Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord; Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!' (39) And some of the Pharisees in the multitudes said to Him, 'Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.' (40) And He answered and said, 'I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!'"

    The context of the quote concerning the stones crying out is in relation to recognition of Jesus as the Messiah of the Jews as He comes into Jerusalem.

    The Pharisees wanted Jesus to rebuke His disciples for this statement related to the coming Messiah. Jesus responds by saying that if the multitudes didn't make such a declaration, then the stones would cry out that He was the Messiah.

    So, your attempt to connect this quote with salvation is an inappropriate analogy. The quote has nothing to do with salvation.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  3. donnA

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    more twisted scripture, no context.
     
  4. Skandelon

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    But it does have to do with God receiving glory from his creation, which goes to the point I'm making here.

    John Wesley made a similar point when he wrote: Indeed, if man were not free, he could not be accountable either for his thoughts, word, or actions. If he were not free, he would not be capable either of reward or punishment; he would be incapable either of virtue or vice, of being either morally good or bad. If he had no more freedom than the sun, the moon, or the stars, he would be no more accountable than them. On supposition that he had no more freedom than them, the stones of the earth would be as capable of reward, and as liable to punishment, as man: One would be as accountable as the other. Yea, and it would be as absurd to ascribe either virtue or vice to him as to ascribe it to the stock of a tree.
     
  5. canadyjd

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    God doesn't need man to recieve glory from His creation. The angels glorify God night and day without end.

    To recieve glory from man, however, God will first free man from sin by the power of Holy Spirit... which He does to those He has chosen according to His will.
    John Wesley is wrong. Jesus was very clear about whether we are free or not. You cannot be a slave of sin and be free at the same time.

    John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin.'"

    And the Apostle Paul also spoke on the issue.

    Romans 3:9 "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all: for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin:"

    Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

    Romans 7:17 "So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me."

    The testimony of scripture is clear that prior to salvation, mankind is enslaved to sin and unable to do what is required by God.
    .
    The analogy is inappropriate, IMHO. The sun, moon, stars... or the stones... do not have a will that is enslaved to sin, as mankind does.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  6. Skandelon

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    I never said God needed anything. This is about what God desires or takes pleasure in and according to scripture he wants people to worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Again, we agree. You cannot be both a slave and free. But, surely you understand that when Wesley or I say that we are "free" it doesn't mean we can do anything we want. I can't flap my arms and fly no matter how much I want to, for example. We are talking about the freedom of choice when presented with options. The freedom to do other than what one ends up doing is "moral freedom." So, when someone is in bondage and is presented the truth of how they can be reconciled they can respond. There is NOTHING in scripture that teaches men are born unable to willingly receive the gift of grace once they are presented with the gospel truth.

    This says nothing about man's ability to leave his slavery and live free when invited by the powerful call of the gospel. The only real difference in what you believe and what I believe is that God's call doesn't have to be "irresistible" in order to be effective to bring men out of their slavery.
     
  7. Winman

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    You turn John 8:34 around to say exactly the opposite of what it really says. It says that #1 everyone who commits sin is #2 a slave of sin.

    It does not say everyone who is a slave of sin commits sin. There is a huge difference. But that is how you perceive this verse, in exact reverse of what it is saying.

    The scriptures make it clear that man has the option of choosing to serve either righteousness or sin.

    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


    Romans 6 shows that whoever we "yield" ourselves to, it is to this that we are a servant. You do not sin because you are a servant to sin, you are a servant to sin because you yield yourself to sin. Huge difference. And your wage will be according to whom you yield yourselves to serve. If you serve sin, your wage will be death. If you serve God through obedience to his word, your wage will be righteousness and life.

    If a man could not choose to obey either sin or righteousness, then these verses make no sense.

    Nowhere in scripture does it say a man cannot obey God. On the contrary, scriptures says many times that man can obey God.

    Neh 1:9 But if ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, yet will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.

    Deut 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
    2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
    3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.


    There are numerous passages in the scriptures where God tells sinful men if they will turn to him he will show them mercy and forgive their sins. Nowhere does God say men are unable to turn to him in repentance as Calvinism teaches. In fact, God says the very opposite.
     
    #7 Winman, Jan 17, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2010
  8. canadyjd

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    John 6:37 "All the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

    God has ordained some to come to Jesus for salvation. Every single person God "has given" will come, without fail.

    John 6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him..."

    Not only will every single person that God the Father "has given" will come to Jesus for salvation, no person that has not been given to Jesus will come because they are not able unless the Father draws them.

    John 10:25 "I told you, and you do not believe;...(26)But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. (27)My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me:..."

    The truth of the first two statements is made evident in this discourse.

    These men heard. These men did not believe. The reason they did not believe was because they were not His sheep. His sheep hear His voice and follow Him.
    The real difference in our beliefs is that one is consistent with the whole teaching of scripture and the other is not.:1_grouphug:

    peace to you:praying:
     
  9. canadyjd

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    To be the "exact opposite" of the what the verse means, you would have to say "everyone who commits sin is made free from sin". What you are attempting to do is make a distinction where there is none.

    The verses I quoted show #1 that everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin and #2 everyone has committed sin. That leads to the undeniable truth that everyone, prior to salvation, is enslaved to sin.

    Paul is addressing Christians in this passage and telling them that, as professing Christians, they are expected to be slaves of righteousness, not slaves to sin.... which is what they were prior to salvation.

    If you read to v.22 "But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification....

    "having been freed" is passive. It is not something they did themselves, it is something that was done for them. If they were indeed freed (by God) from sin they would have become enslaved to God unto righteousness. That is the expectation for a Christian. That is what Paul is saying.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #9 canadyjd, Jan 17, 2010
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  10. Winman

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    No, you are saying everyone is enslaved to sin and has no option but to sin, but the scriptures say you are a servant to sin when you sin. That is a huge difference, what you are saying is not scriptural.

    Imagine a mutiny on a ship. You have the captain giving all the men orders. Then you have a mutinous officer trying to take over the ship giving the same men orders. The men have the option of obeying whom they choose. If they obey the captain, then they are good obedient sailors, but if they choose to obey the mutinous officer they become mutineers. They are not mutineers first and have no choice but to mutiny, but that is what you are trying to teach. That is not what John 8:34 is saying whatsoever.

    You believe an unregenerate man is enslaved to sin like a robot and cannot help but sin. But that is not what the scriptures teach here or anywhere else.

    There is absolutely a huge difference between what you are teaching and what the scriptures say.
     
  11. Skandelon

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    When Jesus was walking on earth, who was it that was given to him by the Father? Who was he there to train and disciple?

    ANSWER: THE APOSTLES. WHO ARE THE REMNANT OF ISRAEL, THE REST WERE HARDENED.

    You are making the hermeneutic error of taking a passage out of its historical context, ignoring the audience (who was Israel) and proof texting by presuming this passage supports your views of soteriology.

    Why don't Calvinists ever quote the very next verse?

    Again, who was being drawn to Jesus at this time and who was being blinded in their rebellion so that they could not see, hear or repent?

    ANSWER: The remnant (apostles) were selected by God to be taught by Jesus, the rest of Israel was being hardened.

    As Paul clearly explains in Romans 11: What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the remnant did. The others were hardened.

    Don't you see? His audience had two groups of people.

    1. Israelite who were being blinded in the rebellion (see John 12:39-40)

    2. Israelites who were not being blinded, but being revealed the truth and taught by Jesus so they could be the foundation for the church to come.

    One group is being DRAWN while the other group is being blinded. However, it is God's will "that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life." And Jesus tells us, "When I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." (Jn 12)

    At this time in Jn 6 he has not been lifted up and the Jews remain blinded. THAT IS WHY THEY CANNOT BELIEVE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING BORN TOTALLY DEPRAVED. IT HAS TO DO WITH A NATION OF ELECT PEOPLE BEING BLINDED WHILE A FEW OF THEM HAVE BEEN SELECTED FOR A NOBEL PURPOSE.
     
  12. canadyjd

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    I quoted Jesus, who said everyone who sins is the slave of sin. Slaves do the will of their masters. That is Paul's point in Romans 7.

    You are taking Romans 6, which was written to professing Christians as an encouragement not to be enslaved to sin once again, and attempting to apply it to unbelievers that were never freed from sin by the power of God.

    You are simply misunderstanding what scripture says.
    So, are you saying there are people somewhere in the world who haven't sinned? Therefore, they aren't enslaved to sin?

    That is contrary to scripture which says "all have sinned and fall short..."
    That is exactly what Paul teaches (minus the robot nonsense) in Romans 7.
    I have been diligent to use scripture to support what I believe. I have shown you the context of the scripture that you have used to explain why I disagree with you.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  13. Winman

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    This has been explained dozens of times to you Cals, but you refuse to accept Jesus's clear teaching. When he speaks of those that the Father "gives" to him, he is speaking of men who where taught and learned through the scriptures.

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


    Jesus explains exactly why men are drawn, they are drawn though the scriptures. Not one man on earth including you would know a thing about the true God and Jesus Christ if God had not given us the scriptures. And those men who listen to God and believe his words will come to Christ. When a man comes to Christ, God gets all the glory and credit, for if not for his word no man could possibly know of and come to Christ.

    Jesus is speaking of the scriptures throughout John 6. If you read further on you will see this:

    John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


    Here Jesus says his words (the scriptures) are spirit and life. But some men will not believe God's word and therefore will not come to Jesus. But those who do come came because they heard and believed God's word.
     
    #13 Winman, Jan 17, 2010
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  14. canadyjd

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    There is no such "remnant" language in this passage. You are making the hermeneutic error of inserting your beliefs into the passage instead of allowing the passage to speak for itself.
    The fact that Jesus speaks of "other" sheep (referring to the gentiles) disproves your pre-conceived belief that He was referring only to the Apostles. He uses the very same language to describe the sheep of the gentiles. The outcome is eternal life.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  15. Skandelon

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    I have to disagree with you on this one brother. When he speaks of those the Father "gives to him" he is speaking of the Remnant out of Israel.

    As I explained in detail earlier. The audience in John 6 are Jews. Within Israel at this time there are two groups.

    1. Those being blinded in their rebellion by God
    2. Those reserved from the hardening and being taught by Christ so that they can be the foundation for the church.

    Jesus is not drawing all men to himself in Jn 6. He won't do that until he is lifted up. He is ONLY drawing the remnant of Israel at that time.
     
  16. Skandelon

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    Actually, I'm allowing scripture to help interpret scripture...taught in Hermeneutics 101.

    Who is the remnant of Israel if it is not the apostles? And why do you believe the audience in John can not believe? John 12:39-41 tells us exactly why:

    "37 Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

    I used scripture to show why they cannot believe, yet your dogma teaches that they cannot believe because they were born that way (totally depravity). Where is that taught in this text?

    You are confusing to different points. I never suggested that "sheep" only referred to the apostles. Sheep are like those who are "grafted into the vine." (ref. Romans 11) The first fold of "sheep" are the Remnant of Israel, who are believing because they were not being hardened as the other Jews were. The second group is those who believe in Christ through their message.
     
  17. Winman

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    No, Skandelon is correct, although there were many thousands of Jews who believed on Christ, 3,000 alone on the day of Pentacost. However the vast majority were hardened as Skandelon says. The scriptures absolutely speak of a remnant.

    Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


    Here Paul speaks of a remnant of Jews whom God foreknew. What was different about these Jews than the others?

    Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
    8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
    9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
    10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.


    This remnant who God foreknew was saved by grace through faith, and not of works.

    The rest were hardened. They did not want to believe the gospel, so God allows them to be deceived and hardened.

    2 Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


    God will only strive with a man so long. At some point which only God knows he will give them up. He will withdraw his spirit from them and allow them to believe a lie and be deceived and hardened.

    But God is simply giving these men what they want. They want to believe a lie, so he allows them to believe a lie.

    When these Jews refused to believe, God sent the apostles, especially Paul to the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy. The Jews considered themselves the elect and chosen of God (which they were), but now goes to the heathen Gentiles. This favor God shows the Gentiles provokes some Jews to come back to God.

    Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.


    That word emulation in verse 14 means jealousy. Paul is saying he went to the Gentiles hopefully to provoke the Jews to jealousy that some might believe and be saved. And Paul shows that these unbelieving Jews can turn from unbelief and be saved.

    Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


    At this time the Jews are in blindness and hardened until the fulness of the Gentiles is completed. When all the Gentiles are come in, then there will be Jews that believe on the Lord. I believe this will take place after the rapture during the tribulation, but some differ on this.
     
    #17 Winman, Jan 17, 2010
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  18. canadyjd

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    You are misunderstanding the quote. The scriptures say men will be taught by God, Himself. Not through the priests. God teaches through Holy Spirit.

    God revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God. He didn't do it through scripture, He did it through the power of Holy Spirit. The Pharisees read scripture, and didn't believe. They certainly understood scripture, probably better than most..., but they didn't believe because they weren't of His sheep.
    That is not what Jesus said.
    Your statement is easily shown to be false. Scripture tells us that God has given to men a general knowledge of Himself that is recognized in creation.

    Romans 1:18+
    That is not what Jesus said.
    Without His Spirit convicting men of the truth of His Word, no one would come to Christ.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  19. Skandelon

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    Great post Winman! I hope people take the time to read it and really grapple with it. Few Calvinists will.

    I actually do differ on this point however. I believe that the judicial portion of the hardening was lifted once a significant number of Gentiles believed. This was in order to establish them in the church, otherwise I don't believe the Jews would have let them in...they were too bigoted. The "fullness" doesn't mean "all" the gentiles, it just implies that a full number comes in to establish them...that was accomplished in Paul's day in my opinion.
     
  20. canadyjd

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    Jesus told us why. They were not His sheep. All of His sheep will hear His voice and follow Him. The rest will not, nor are they able because they are not His sheep.

    You can say God didn't draw them, or God hardened them, but that doesn't change the fact they were unable to come to Jesus.
    Perhaps you can show me where I said they couldn't come because they were totally depraved? I'll wait patiently while you look for the quote.

    I have consistently quoted Jesus. They couldn't believe because they weren't of His sheep.
    The point I am making is that the language that Jesus uses about the gentile "sheep" is the same as the Jewish "sheep". That is, they are part of the group that has been given to Jesus by the Father.

    They will hear His voice and follow Him. Jesus knows them by name. He will give His life for them and give them eternal life. No gentile will come unless he is drawn by the Father and all who are drawn will come and follow Jesus unto salvation.

    This is a specific group of people, predetermined by God for salvation. Jesus already knows every name. The names have already been given to Him by God the Father. That specific group of people will be drawn by the Father to come to Christ. Every person so drawn will come to Jesus and follow Him.

    It is not a general/undetermined group of people made up of those who believe scripture of their own free will and choose to come to Jesus.

    That is the language of John. That is what Jesus said. It is very clear if you will accept it.

    peace to you:praying:
     

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