Please post your opinion.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Aschultz73, Apr 7, 2010.

  1. Aschultz73

    Aschultz73
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    On another forum I go to we had some discussions about the Law. I saved some of my post to furthur study it and elaborate perhaps in one of my classes. Ironically I find that next week I have week of study on the Lawgiver and biblical law. This is part of a post I made on a forum, please give any thoughts. Basically the author of the original OP stated that when Christ died the Mosiac Law was rendered obsolete, but the Law of the 10 commandments were still valid. This of course is a work in progress :jesus:!!!

    Thank you for taking the time to read this!!!!

    An interesting point you are trying to make, but I think you miss the point a bit. Christ himself gave witness to the canonization of the Old Testament saying...

    Luke 24:44 "That all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."

    This broad and sweeping statement covers all three major divisions of the Old Testament. The Law was the Pentateuch, the prophets cover the major and minor prophets, and the Psalms cover the historical and all poetical books. Here Christ is clearly placing all of Old Testament Canon as being authoritative, thus when Christ died all of that same Old Testament was fulfilled when he declared, "It is finished."

    However this is not declaring the Law itself as void as so many, particularly Universalists and other liberal theologies claim. The problem is that while Christ declared that it was finished they still cant understand that to be found not guilty in the Law (all of it) is to be found in Christ. Of course those who claim liberal theology claim the Law is gone, but Christ clearly stated it is not void until certain things come to pass.

    Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

    The Lord clearly came to fulfill the price of the Law which was the shedding of blood. This includes all that was written in the Pentateuch concerning the Law. The canon was established by the time of Christ and Jesus Himself bore witness to its authenticity. So when Christ fulfilled the Law it was because He who had no sin, died so that we may be found perfect as Christ is found perfect. But by no means does the Law not stand, for going a step furthur we find.....

    Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say to you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

    Now the liberal theologian will claim there it is he fulfilled it, but when digging deeper we must look at what happened when the Law passes. Notice Christ clearly states that heaven and earth itself shall pass. Now unless Christians have missed something we know that heaven and earth has not passed or we would not be having this conversation. However, scripture tells us that heaven and earth shall indeed pass away at same point. For this we go to the Revelation....

    Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

    Now here clearly we see that indeed in the future the old will be swept away and replaced by the new. Now of course this is the time when the Law has passed because the Law will no longer be needed. Christ will have called his sheep and they will have passed into eternal heaven. Now the liberal theologian will claim, but see all will be saved as we have said, but what does scripture say about this? What is even more ironic is that the verse immediately proceding this claim states....

    Revelation 20:15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Now of course we are to believe as the liberal theologian claims that the lake is remedial. That all will be made to be saved. But no where is this to be found. When the old is cast out and the new heaven and earth made there is not one mention of anyone else coming into the glory of God's presence. We see a New Jerusalem the great city of God with He Himself dwelling amongst men. And what does He proclaim when all this is completed?

    Revelation 21:6 "It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.

    7 "He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

    But of course the liberal theologian will still state all will be saved or the Law need not apply. Yet we still find not one instance of remedial justice in scripture, but God Himself states clearly......

    8 "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice the magic arts, the idolaters, and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur. This is the second death."

    Here God himself declares the place of all evil. Can we find any point here after where those who are placed here are removed from the lake? Not one mention. We only see the dwelling place of God, the holy city where Christians found perfect in Christ will live in the Grace of the Most High God. The Lord confirms this when He ends.

    Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful and deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    So you see my brother this is why the Law yet stands. None can overcome it save those found in Christ. This is what the liberal theologian can not get around. This is why there are those who pull away a tiny piece of scripture away from the whole. This is why there are those who can accept everlasting life, but not everlasting seperation. This is why many including the liberal theologian want to even remove the Revelation questioning its very authenticity.

    So when you attempt to seperate what God wrote with His finger from what Moses wrote with his hand be careful. The Lord God Jesus Christ Himself gave authenticity to all of Jewish Canon in the Old Testament and even testified to its authority. The Lawgiver gave the law and the scriptures and not one man can change it. No matter how hard they try, no matter how hard they spin words, no matter how much they attempt to quote scripture. The Lord has preserved His truth for Christians.

    In short the liberal theologian can not get around the words of the great imposter, "You shall surely not die!"

    God Bless You Brother.
     
  2. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ
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    Aschultz73...

    That person is in error.

    Under the New Covenant, we have been completly free from the Law.

    Every last bit of it.

    We are to live in...

    That is just one of multitudes of scriptures that make clear that we are freed from the Law. So clear that the scriptures say we are DEAD to it.

    The scriptures go so far as to say that if we go back under the law we are under a curse.

    The primary purpose of the book of Galaciens is to FORCEFULLY make clear that we have been absolutely and completely delivered from the Law. That includes the ten commandments that were written in stone by God.

    We are "under" NONE of it

    The scripture could not possible be more clear about it.
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13:10

    Because of the nature that is in us through the Spirit we have the agape to care for and think to do well to our neighbor, instead of wanting to take his wife, or kill him, or steal from him, or lie to him, or bear false witness against him. or to do any other hurtful thing to him.

    It's just that simple. That's my opinion.
     
    #3 kyredneck, Apr 7, 2010
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  4. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Hebrews 7

    Hebrews 7:
    18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully,
    9 as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    10 for fornicators, for abusers of themselves with men, for menstealers, for liars, for false swearers, and if there be any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;
    11 according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. 1 Tim

    IMO, the law was NEVER intended for the righteous; i.e. those with the law written in their hearts, Ro 2:14.
     
    #5 kyredneck, Apr 8, 2010
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  6. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Love

    Matthew 22:37
    Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'


    Don't forget to love your self and then love others as you love your self.

    Matthew 22:38
    This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."


    Romans 13:8
    [ Love, for the Day is Near ] Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

    Romans 13:10
    Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

    Galatians 5:14
    The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
     
    #6 psalms109:31, Apr 8, 2010
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  7. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Love

    I do want to add we don't even know what love is or how to love until we are in Christ and Christ in us.

    Isn't love what God writes upon on our hearts?
     
  8. Aschultz73

    Aschultz73
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    Thank you for your replies. Now I have a question, do we say we are not under the law because we are in Christ and the penalty has been removed? And as we are Christians being in Christ, is not the unbeliever still bound to the Law?

    Are Christians not taught that grace that brings salvation also disciplines the Christian to deny ungodliness and wordly lusts, and to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age as is described in Titus 2:11,12. Do we not observe and keep the law of God in doing this? Not because of judgement, but because it is an extension of the nature of the Most High God?

    And what is meant by this statement in Romans 8:3,4?

    "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

    So while we might not be under the penalty of the Law we are still responsible for being obedient to it as it is a commandment from God. If we are not obedient to it, are we not accepting the same carnality and fleshly desires as the unbeliever?

    Please keep the thoughts coming.
     
  9. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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  10. Aschultz73

    Aschultz73
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  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13:8

    Hello Aschultz.

    The poster you quote in the OP seems knowledgeable and he makes some good points (I believe he may also believe any that disagrees with him to be liberal :) ).

    There's much one could say on this subject, but I will focus on this one point for now. As with many Christians today, he fails to see that the heaven and earth of Mt 5:18 is referring to the world, or age of the Old Covenant, which indeed has passed away. Consider these passages:

    10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands:
    11 They shall perish; but thou continuest: And they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
    12 And as a mantle shalt thou roll them up, As a garment, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, And thy years shall not fail. Heb 1 [Ps 102:25-27]

    Take note concerning the Lord: ...Thou, Lord.....thou continuest.....thou art the same....thy years shall not fail.

    Take note concerning the heaven and earth:.... the earth, And the heavens.....They shall perish......they all shall wax old .....they shall be changed....

    There is a 'removing' and a 'remaining' in the above passage.

    Now go to the 12th chapter:

    ....... Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. Therefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe: Heb 12:26-28

    Take note that there's a 'removing' and a 'remaining' in the above passage. The heaven and earth of the Old Covenant is removed, the kingdom of Christ remains.

    Now go to 2 Cor 3:

    9 For if the ministration of condemnation hath glory, much rather doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
    11 For if that which passeth away was with glory, much more that which remaineth is in glory.
    13 and are not as Moses, who put a veil upon his face, that the children of Israel should not look stedfastly on the end of that which was passing away:
    14 but their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the old
    covenant the same veil remaineth, it not being revealed to them that it is done away in Christ. 2 Cor 3

    Again, there is a 'removing' and a 'remaining' in the above passage. The ministration of condemnation passeth away, the ministration of righteousness remains.

    In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away. Heb 8:13

    Again, the old vanished away. I suggest to you that there is actually nothing new about any of the spiritual tenets of the 'new' covenant. It's new only in the sense that these things were a mystery, things not known until the heaven and earth of the old covenant were removed and Christ chose to reveal them.

    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13:8

    What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made; and it was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator. Gal 3:19

    The law was added until Christ came, then it was removed.

    [11 In that day shalt thou not be put to shame for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me; for then I will take away out of the midst of thee thy proudly exulting ones, and thou shalt no more be haughty in my holy mountain.
    12 But I will leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall take refuge in the name of Jehovah.
    13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth; for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid. Zeph 3 ]
     
  12. Aschultz73

    Aschultz73
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    I can see the logic of your assessment, but when some say the Law is removed I wonder. When Jesus said the two great commandments He was not changing anything or removing anything, but confirming that which the ten already where. When we are to love God with all our heart we are observing the first 4 of those commandments. When we are loving our neighbor as ourself we are obeserving the other 6. So when one says they are removed I tend to see them as still there. Not as to add to grace as was evidently occuring in the book of Galatians by the false teachers, but as evidence of faith and change in the believer.

    BTW Im not sure if I clarified this, in the original post the words after the green letters are my response to my friend. Our conversation is continueing as well btw on another forum.

    I am finding that with unbelievers this discussion is an issue because people dont understand why they are guilty, but with those who profess a false sense of Christianity it seems even worse. They want to claim love as it applies to a man made sense and not that of scripture.

    Also by the way when I am addressing the liberal theology I am addressing the Universalist. They know in that forum what I am speaking of. The other forums I am in for lack of a better word are dominated by secular or postmodern thought. So when I made that post I am directly addressing my Christian friend, but indirectly those who are of unbelief. Its part of the reason I searched out a Christian forum from my denomination here, because I found that I could not confer with brothers and sisters in Christ without the opinions of false translations of scripture flooding the responses to our OP's.
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    You asked:
    .......which I consider to be an excellent question. I wish some others would give some input on this.

    Consider this:

    12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead
    that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20

    These are judged by their works, which in turn requires a standard to judge their works by; and I know of no other standard God would use other than the ten commandments which were written on tablets of stone.

    In 2 Cor 3 those tablets of stone (the ten commandments) seem to be included with the ministration of condemnation which is done away in Christ. I myself somewhat wrestle with this. I don't understand everything I know about it, but I have in the past made a distinction between the ten commandments and the other 613 [?] sundry laws (touch not, taste not, handle not, ceremonial, sacrificial, etc.) of the Pentateuch.
     
    #13 kyredneck, Apr 11, 2010
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  14. psalms109:31

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    We who are in Christ there is no condemnation, but I find these scriptures interesting.

    Jude 1:4
    For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

    James 3:1
    Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
     
  15. Aschultz73

    Aschultz73
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    And this is my problem. There are many who simply make an implication that the law is either void, not needed, or in some way repealed. This does not stand up to basic theology itself.

    God is our Lawgiver as much as He is our Sustainer, our Salvation, Etc.....

    If God is the Lawgiver and God is Immutable (unchanging) then the law, the 10 commandments not the laws of Moses, have to also be immutable as the law itself is an extension of God's nature. If the law were void, not needed, or repealed then we can logically conclude God Himself can be made void, not needed, or repealed. God forbid as we as Christians can not accept this, then how can we accept that which is of the nature of God as being void. Thus I can only conclude that it is the penalty made void in the salvation of Christians, but not the law itself.

    Now again I do not contend that we add to grace. Galatians forbids this by the writings of Paul and I agree with Paul. But I do feel the change we feel in being born again makes us sensative to the law (10 commandments) and gives us a desire to not sin again. Are we perfect and saved by works? No clearly not. But the desire is clearly there to obey the commandments of God which is To love God with all our hearts (the first 4 commandments) and to love our neighbor as ourselves (the other 6 commandments).

    Which then leaves the unbeliever. First in judgement they stand as not accepting the grace of God in Christ Jesus. This is their greatest discredit. Then since they have not accepted the standard of the perfect Christ, they place themselves against the standard to which they are weighed in the balances and found lacking.

    Like you sir I wish more would be involved in this discussion.
     
    #15 Aschultz73, Apr 12, 2010
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  16. Aschultz73

    Aschultz73
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    Thank you for these posts. I agree we who are in Christ face no condemnation and it is clear the scripture you quote warns against false teaching and those who condone that which God does not condone. Even more so we can find evidence of the 10 commandments themselves being listed in the NT where many say it is restricted to the OT.

    Love God with all your heart

    In Acts 14:15 we are told to not have any gods before Him.

    In 1 Cor 10:7 we are told not to have graven images.

    In Col 3:8 we are told not to blasphemy which is to take the Lord's name in vain as well.

    Col 2:16 speaks of the sabbath.

    Love your neighbor as yourself

    By Col 3:20 we know we must honor our father and mother.

    Romans 13:8,9 teaches us that we should not kill

    Hebrew 13:4 points to the judgement of adultery, showing us that we should not commit adultery

    Eph 4:28 tells us not to steal.

    Col 3:9 tells us not to lie to another which is bearing a false witness.

    Eph 5:3 exhorts us to not show covetousness.

    And as always I must emphatically claim that I in no way speak of works being over grace or a part of the grace of God. I in fact fear this very line of thought as even to speak of it could lead some to more dangerous beliefs such as what I deny. But in many ways lately I have found that this is something we as Christians do not address and casualy pass by because we know we suffer no condemnation. But I feel it is a direct manifestation of love that drives me to face these thoughts.
     

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