Please pray for our church.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Jul 28, 2006.

  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
  2. genesis12

    genesis12
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    1
    Amen. I pray that God will pave the way.
     
  3. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Messages:
    10,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    The article quotes the pastor . . .
    ------------------------------
    Cosby has refused to file for a property tax exemption the church would be eligible for as a nonprofit organization because he says the government should recognize it is a house of the Lord.
    ------------------------------
    Well, it seems to me he is creating the problem by refusing to follow the legal requirements for a tax exemption. The government apparently is not refusing to recognize it as a "house of the Lord", but merely expecting the church to file the proper paperwork like every other tax exempt organization.
     
  4. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll pray also Dale but I don't understand why your pastor won't file the papers? We are to obey all laws. We are to render to Ceaser what is his and to GOD what is his. Jesus paid his taxes and I believe he would have filed his papers.
     
  5. Joshua Rhodes

    Joshua Rhodes
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/jrhodes.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2003
    Messages:
    3,944
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't pretend to understand, but I will be praying.
     
  6. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,508
    Likes Received:
    3
    What's the issue with identifying your group and building as a church? Personally, it's hard for me to worry about someone who takes that position.
     
  7. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    It takes almost nothing to file as just tax exempt status. It is just a matter of filing with the IRS. I did it years ago with a church I started with a phone call to the IRS. I got all the necesary materials in the mail. It took less than five minutes on the phone. It is not like filing 501 (c) (3)If the church is not recognized as a chruch then the people who give may not be able to take the amount they give off their taxes. His practice is like shooting himself in the foot. I am not sure but I do not believe he can claim a parsonage either if he does not pastor a church. His group is not recognized as a church but rather just like a group of people getting together to play cards.

    If the people in the church claimed their giving on their taxes then they may possibly owe a bunch of back taxes should the IRS audit them.
     
    #7 gb93433, Aug 1, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2006
  8. El_Guero

    El_Guero
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen to that!

     
  9. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry, I have been gone for a while.

    First of all, the problem is complicated by the fact that when a real estate company bought the property, the county started wanting taxes.
    They SHOULD only want the taxes for the years that it was owned by the other, non church company but they still are wanting more ((12k per year which no one involved can afford)

    There is a lot more to it than I can go into right now about applying for exemptions and I know it is not "hard or time consuming"
    That is not the point.
    ALso, there are many churches in Indiana that simply send in a letter stating who they are to the county and that has been accepted for years.

    They are not allowing that this time.

    The difference is whether a church is non taxable or tax exempt.

    We believe that the Church is non taxable.
    WHen applying for the exemption you become tax-exempt.
    At first it doesn't seem much different but it comes down to where the right or privilege comes from.
    A non taxable status come from God.
    A tax exempt status come from the county or state and can be taken away by the one that gives it.
    We believe that it is important not to entangle our church in benefits from the government that could compromise our beliefs.

    By receiving benefits from the government, there would be a conflict of interest.

    Now, it has not yet caused a great deal of problems for most churches but it may...
    For instance, if you preached or promoted things that were not considered politically correct you could lose your status.
     
  10. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    We don't have a problem with that, we have tried to work it out with the county.
    We have sent a letter (which has been the policy to accept for many years in Indiana)
    Saying that we are a church and as such are non taxable but it has not been accepted.

    BTW, we have sympathy with the overwhelming majority of the county and city but just not the one person that can do anything about it.
    FOr what it is worth, she will probably not be re elected in November.
     
  11. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree totally.
    But, what does the law actually say?
    And who decides what belongs to God and what belongs to Caesar?
     
  12. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    THere is no parsonage per se.
    PRoperty taxes are paid on the house on a personal basis and is not connected with the church in any way.

    You are correct that gifts to the church are not tax deductible.

    BUt then, why should we tell the IRS every dime we give to the church?
    It really isn't any of there business. I don't think I would make deduction for gifts to the church even if I could.

    That brings up another issue and that is, would you give the same amount to the church without the carrot from the government?

    Put another way...if it was money that could go to a new car or boat, rather than Uncle Sam, would you still give to the church?
    That is just something to think about. I am not accusing anyone of anything.
    Just for consideration.
     
  13. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't see God in any part of this debate. It is the gov that is taxing and is the gov who sets the tax status. It is the gov who agreed not to tax non-profit and religeous orgs and it is up to each group to provide proof of status.

    File the papers and get back to worshiping our Saviour...
     
  14. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    How about a different way of looking at it. The deduction allows you to give more to charitable organizations. If for example you are in a 30 percent tax bracket then you are roughly able to give 30 percent more to the church or otehr causes. Isn't that more beneficial to the church or those other causes? If you do not get a tax deduction then the church wil get less than you are actually able to give with a tax deduction. That could mean a huge difference for a pastor of a small church or a missions program.

    You can either give your money to the IRS or give it to the church. You can pay more taxes to the IRS by not claiming the deduction or give lesss to the IRS and more to your church. Which would you rather?
     
    #14 gb93433, Aug 4, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2006
  15. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    If you are giving what God wants you to give, then that is a non-issue.

    If you do not take the deduction then how would it make you feel to give more money to what the world wants such as Planned Parenthood and the abortionists?

    You only have so much money in each pay check. A portion of any deduction that you are entitled to but do not take goes to the IRS. But if can take a deduction then you can designate it where you want.

    Taxes are not about the US getting money. They print the money. It is about a way to control people to get them to do what they want.

    The anti-Christians would love to spend your money on their whims instead of allowing you that tax deduction.
     
    #15 gb93433, Aug 4, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2006
  16. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bro Dale,

    3 John 1:7
    Because that for his name's sake they went forward taking nothing of the Gentiles.

    One of my favorite verses on the subject, completely overlooked and disregarded on the subject at hand. These are good people who mean good for you also, but they are entrenched in 100 years of BENEFITS. The scriptural position you are taking is in complete agreement with the historical Baptist distinctive of the "ENTIRE separation of church and state" (emphasis mine). Let me make this clear.......I am not talking about the commonly debated issue of "separation of church and state" in the way that it is NORMALLY debated. Government is in the church business. Government defines, guides, requires, observes, blesses and holds accountable churches, ministries, and religious organizations. I understand that your church does not want to be a part of that system. I believe in church polity. You should have the right to do that without being restricted and/or punished.
    We are praying for you all from Ky/Tn.
    Can someone cite or please help us to see the law or even the IRS directive that requires a church to sign up, register or whatever for a not for profit, for (c) 3 status or anything like that?

    Thank You all for your consideration in this matter.
    "Once I was blind but now I see"
     
  17. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bro Dale,

    3 John 1:7
    Because that for his name's sake they went forward taking nothing of the Gentiles.

    One of my favorite verses on the subject, completely overlooked and disregarded on the subject at hand. These are good people who mean good for you also, but they are entrenched in 100 years of BENEFITS. The scriptural position you are taking is in complete agreement with the historical Baptist distinctive of the "ENTIRE separation of church and state" (emphasis mine). Let me make this clear.......I am not talking about the commonly debated issue of "separation of church and state" in the way that it is NORMALLY debated. Government is in the church business. Government defines, guides, requires, observes, blesses and holds accountable churches, ministries, and religious organizations. I understand that your church does not want to be a part of that system. I believe in church polity. You should have the right to do that without being restricted and/or punished.
    We are praying for you all from Ky/Tn.

    Can someone cite or please help us to see the law or even the IRS directive that requires a church to sign up, register or whatever for a not for profit, for (c) 3 status or anything like that?

    Thank You all for your consideration in this matter.
    "Once I was blind but now I see"
     
  18. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    There is no requirement for a chruch to be 501(c)(3). However if a chruch is sued then the entire membershipo can be sued. If however a chruch is sued and it is incorporated as a non-profit 501(c)(3) then the memebrs cannot be held liable and the limits of liability is limited. In the past I found that many insurance companies will not insure you if you are not incorporated.
     
  19. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    Please pray for our church

    gb,
    You are correct with your statement that there is no requirement for churches to register with the IRS. It is a commonly held misconception that all churches must be a "not for profit organization" (NFP). Now moving on to your statement about liability. You are painting with a wide brush. Incorporation does not limit liability for all members of an assembly. The arriving subpoena will normally list the Pastor (CEO) of the church (business) and at least the trustees (not a scriptural minister, only there for NFP business). Depending on the scope, force and circumstances of the litigation it will sometimes name the deacons, and some members. So...if the animal doesn’t work why continue to feed it? It only stays in the barn and drops manure all over the place.

    I know, I know some lawyer somewhere said it would be the best thing to do. A good thing for the lawyer to say because it gives him job security. It keeps the assembly on the line with the court jurisdictionally and keeps it as a sitting target. It may never get shot at but I just don’t like wearing the T-shirt with all the red rings on it. We live in a day when all the pastors are listening to the lawyers and it used to be that all the lawyers listened to the pastors. Something wrong with this picture?

    Lastly, you made a statement about insurance. Your statement is incorrect. Coverage can be contracted for a non NFP organization. It happens all the time.
    Thanks
    Bartimaeus
     
  20. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    Please pray for our church

    gb,
    I am very sorry, I was wrong in my last paragraph. You were not incorrect, just very broad in your statement. My apologies.
    Bartimaeus
     

Share This Page

Loading...