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Please review this " what we believe statement " give your opinions?? Please!!!!!!

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by TaliOrlando, Aug 31, 2006.

  1. Snitzelhoff

    Snitzelhoff New Member

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    Joe, I apologize if this is a bit unclear, and admittedly, this is not the most in-depth theological argument I have ever constructed, but here's just a thought for you:

    You're a father. Your child was begotten of a human. Therefore, what is your child? Is he not human himself?

    Jesus is the begotten (not adopted, as we are, nor created, as Adam) Son of God. He is eternally begotten of God. Therefore, he is God. One can only beget one's own kind. Thus, John 1:1, 14 says that Jesus is with God and is God and became flesh.

    Your arguments make logical sense, but you're starkly contradicting Scripture, so you might consider rethinking your stance here.

    Michael
     
  2. Joe90

    Joe90 New Member

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    Hi Michael

    Thanks for the reply.


    Quote:
    'You're a father. Your child was begotten of a human. Therefore, what is your child? Is he not human himself?'

    True, but how many people would say that my son and I are the same person? Surely anyone who is sane would say there are TWO of us? One father, one son.

    Quote:
    'Jesus is the begotten (not adopted, as we are, nor created, as Adam) Son of God. He is eternally begotten of God.'

    'Eternally begotten' is a contradiction in terms. You cannot be ‘eternally begotten’ as the very word means ‘born’. Birth is a beginning. If you had a 'beginning' i.e. the time you were born, you are not eternal are you? Sons have beginnings. ‘Eternal’ means no beginning, no end. To be born means you have a beginning, therefore you are not eternal.

    Notice that the phrase is ‘eternal life’. To say ‘I have eternal life’ doesn’t mean you are claiming to be God, having also lived forever does it? Heaven forbid. No, you are given eternal LIFE. It’s the LIFE inside you that’s ETERNAL. A piece of God in you through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Notice in John 5:26 -
    'For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself'.

    To me that's as plain as the nose on your face: the Father has LIFE in his self, and he gave LIFE to the Son to have LIFE in his self. How many lives? TWO. One Father, one Son. Just as I gave life to my son, God has given life to his Son - his OWN LIFE!

    When you take a cutting of a tree, and you plant that cutting in the ground, and it grows up and begins to flourish and live of its own devices, how many trees do you now have? One? Certainly the trees have the SAME LIFE, as it came from thhe same source. But now we have TWO trees. Two separate beings. Two separate genetic pathways but from one common source. But you still have two trees. You’d have to be nuts to say there is still only one tree. That’s how two can be one.

    This explains:

    John 10:30*
    30 I and my Father are one.

    My wife and I are one on many issues. But there’s still two of us.
    It’s not one like your finger is one. Here one means ‘agreed’.
    Jesus always agreed with the Father.
    Jesus stated it categorically when God sent him to die on the cross. He didn’t want to go, but he agreed to go and do it anyway, because he did the will of the Father. Four scriptures confirm this:

    Matthew 26:39, Matthew 26:42, Mark 14:36, Luke 22:42

    Quote:
    'One can only beget one's own kind. Thus, John 1:1, 14 says that Jesus is with God and is God and became flesh.'

    This is the most misunderstood scripture in the NT, and I have been waiting for someone to quote it:

    John 1
    *1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    *2The same was in the beginning with God.
    *3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    *4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    *5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
    *6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
    *7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
    *8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
    *9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
    *10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    *11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    *12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    *13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    *14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    The whole trinitarian doctrine is pinned on vs 14 - the Word being made flesh, meaning that the man (Jesus the Son) is now God.

    However, it doesn’t reconcile with

    Hebrews 1:2-4*

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
    Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    In John 1:14 it says ‘we beheld his glory’ and the above Hebrews scripture shows what the ‘glory’ is:

    'Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person'

    It says clearly the Son is the brightness of his glory! The express image of God. Jesus Christ, the Sn of God, is the VISIBLE image of the invisible God!

    Also notice that he (the Son) is 'MADE so much higher than the angels'. Who made him so much higher if he's God. It would be a pointless scripture as God is already higher than the angels.
    If Jesus the Son is God, how can he '(sit) down on the right hand of the Majesty on high'? How can he sit beside himself? Please explain this physical impossibility!

    The fact is John 1:1 is absolutely correct - the Word (God) was made flesh and dwelt among us, in the body of his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. God did in fact dwell among us, but since he is a spirit:

    John 4:24
    'God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.'

    and spirits cannot be seen by man:

    1 John 4:12
    'No man hath seen God at any time.'

    John 1:18
    'No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.'

    and there in John 1:18 was how it was done - the only begotten SON hath declared him! Jesus the Son of God declared the presence of the Father in his life on Earth:

    The only way is to realise that it was GOD speaking, THROUGH the Son when he said:

    'Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?'

    If your jaw drops at this statement, think about this. Who performed the miracles?
    Jesus the Son? If he did, then:

    John 5:30
    I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    is meaningless. No, Jesus did not perform the miracles, God did.

    No one would ever argue that the scriptures don't mesh perfectly with one another. So how do you reconcile John 1:1 and Matthew 28:19 with the following scriptures, if you have 'God the Son'?

    2 Corinthians 1:3
    'Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort' (God and Father. You make the Son God you have two Gods)

    2 Corinthians 11:31
    The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (God and Father. You make the Son God you have two Gods)

    Ephesians 1:3
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (God and Father. You make the Son God you have two Gods)

    1 Peter 1:3
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

    (God and Father. You make the Son God you have two Gods. You also have mention of Jesus being raised from the DEAD. God cannot die can he?)

    Matthew 16:16-18
    And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    If Jesus the Son is God, (who can do anything) why would he say this:

    John 5:30
    I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    Why would he say that? Is he suffering from multiple personality disorder? Is he his own Father? John 5:30 clearly points to the following:

    1) Jesus of his own self does nothing
    2) He hears from the Father (if the Father is not separate, is he hearing voices in his own head?)
    3) He has his OWN WILL
    4) The Father has a different will
    5) His judgement is just because the of the Father

    Speaks of two separate beings doesn't it? One God (the Father), one obedient Son who does what he is told.

    Quote:

    ‘Your arguments make logical sense, but you're starkly contradicting Scripture, so you might consider rethinking your stance here.

    Michael'

    You can clearly see I am NOT contradicting scripture at all. I am contradicting your understanding of it however.
    Have you stopped to think that your understanding might not be correct?
    How do you reconcile all these scriptures (and there are many, many more) to your trinitarian views?

    Still no one has yet come up with an explanation of how a son can be his own father.

    I wait with interest.
     
  3. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    John 10:30-- Jesus speaking:

    "I and the Father are one."

    that about sums it up.
     
  4. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    The problem is Joe90 is insisting on thinking of Jesus as Son of God in strictly human terms.
    Athanasius once wrote that we cannot understand the Father begetting the Son as we would a human father begetting a son because a human father loses a bit of his substance in order to create the son. If we think of it in these terms then we make the Father less and the Son less, but we know that is not true because they are one and equally glorified. The mistake that Joe90 is making is a common one when a person insists on placing human reason above the revealed word.

    May I suggest people spend sometime reading Athanasius' De Cretis, it is available at www.ccel.org
     
  5. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Joe, Jesus was obedient to the Father while incarnated on earth to live the perfect life, which is living every moment in constant obedience to God the Father.

    God the Father and the Son of God and the HS are 3 beings in one Godhead -- there is no analogy on earth. You think that it has to be 3 gods but you are wrong, wrong, wrong. All 3 Persons of the Godhead share the same attributes - they are distinct but not separate.

    You still have not answered me? What is your religious affiliation?

    You sound like a Christadelphian or a JW. Or possibly in The Way International?

    Why don't you answer?
     
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