pledge of allegance unconstitutional ?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Revolt, Jun 26, 2002.

  1. Revolt

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  2. Morat

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    Do they make schoolchildren go to church?
     
  3. Johnv

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    I have no doubt that this will be appealed and overturned.
     
  4. Gayla

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    Let's pray it is overturned.
     
  5. Rev. Joshua

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    Why would we want it to be overturned?

    Shouldn't an American citizen be able to show their patriotism without also claiming to believe in God. The two are not, and never have been, synonymous.

    Joshua
     
  6. Brother Adam

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    By saying an allegience to the flag I'm not forcing nor asking you to believe in God. The phrase "One nation under God" is not "I believe in God, and believe in one nation which has been set up under the provision of God. Though I'm not a historian, lets look at what the phrase "One nation under God" means, before we decide it is unconstitutional.

    Brother Adam

    [ June 26, 2002, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Brother Adam ]
     
  7. The Galatian

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    It is definitely illegal to make a child (or anyone else) acknowledge God. In my school, we let those who don't want to say it, ignore it. We can't legally do otherwise.

    It is, BTW, illegal to make children say the pledge at all. Jehovah's witnesses refuse to do it, and they cannot be forced to do it.

    Wouldn't it be wonderful if we gave Caesar what was his, and God those things that are His?

    Too simple, I guess.
     
  8. Kiffin

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    Was not the Pledge originaly written by Socialist Francis Bellamy in 1892? "one Nation indivisible" I believe even has it's origins in that philosophy of a large central government where states are not allowed to secede. I think add "under God" was added in the 1950's to the pledge of allegiance thinking that Comunists could not say it because they were athiests. Some people of the WW II generation say it without "under God" because it was added later and they memorized the old form.
     
  9. church mouse guy

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    I do not know who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance, but I remember that Eisenhower was President when the Pledge was changed to include "under God." The tv said that it was 1954. I was in junior high school at the time and I remember that it took a while to get used to the new Pledge. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Eisenhower became a Presbyterian while he was President, unusual for a President to become a Christian in the White House. At the time of the change, everyone in the small town where I lived thought that it was good. I have always thought that the change was Eisenhower's work, but I could be wrong as I have no proof. I like Ike.

    I see that the Senate Majority Leader said the court in this case was nuts. Judges seem to want to legislate without standing for election to the legislature, don't they?
     
  10. Revolt

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    Now they cant do eaither because the pledge has been called unconstitutional so they cant say it now
     
  11. The Galatian

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    We can still say the pledge. All that happened is that we can't be forced to say it now.

    But in most school districts (mine included) kids were allowed to refuse to say it before.

    It's a shame that the McCarty people inserted the "Under God" amendment, because it was divisive and not really legal. But it's a small thing, and not much of an offense. We should know enough to let small things pass. "In God we Trust" on coins is illegal, too, but no one really cares, except a few militant atheists, and some Christians who don't like seeing God cheapened that way.
     
  12. Gayla

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    Are illegal and Unconstitutional the same thing?
     
  13. ATeenageChristian

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    Someone wrote this in the News Affecting Baptists area...:

    Why would we pledge allegiance to a Masonic symbol, the flag of the United States? Did Jesus pledge allegiance to Rome?

    The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a member of an occult brotherhood, a Freemason. And there are little chidren and adults who believe "the story" instead of truth with hands over their hearts, in a Masonic gesture, pledging allegiance to the flag of America. What does this have to do with the King of kings and the Lord of lords?

    "I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

    The above pledge (except for "one Nation under God") was written by Francis J. Bellamy (1855-1931), a Baptist clergyman and also a -- Fabian Socialist, who was also a member of Little Falls Masonic Lodge No. 181, Little Falls, New York. The pledge was published in "The Youth's Companion" magazine on September 8,1892 in Boston. The phrase, "one Nation under God", was added in 1954 by the U.S. Congress.

    Followers of Jesus ought to re-examine this civil ritual for several reasons. This pledge is really an oath. Jesus said that we should not swear oaths, but to let our "yes" be yes and our "no" be no (Matthew 5:33-37).

    We ought to consider what it is we are doing when we take part in a solemn ritual with pagans, Pagans, Mormons, Masons, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists etc. etc. and we speak of "one nation under God". What god are we referring to?

    Freemasonry teaches, "the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man." The Bible says that all who have not become a child of God by becoming reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, are an enemy of God. When we face the Red, White, and Blue with our hands over our hearts and speak of "one nation under god", are we speaking of the god of the U.S. one dollar bill? "In god we trust"? The god of the one dollar bill is the god of the U.S. seal on the one dollar bill: equilateral triangle, All-seeing Eye of Osiris, and the Egyptian pyramid. All symbols of Freemasonry.

    The more one looks into the history of Francis Bellamy and the Pledge, the more questions arise as to what has really been going on.

    I encourage you to re-examine whether you, as a follower of Jesus Christ, or your children, ought to be taking part in this Masonic ritual.

    -------------------------------------------------

    HERE IS MY RESPONSE TO THIS ISSUE:
    _______________________________________________
    I disagree. Jesus said "Give what is Caesars to Caesars and give what is God's to God." God created the world and created America!!! We are pledging are loyalty to a nation which is not only at war with terrorism, but is crumbling from the inside. We need to show our loyalty because if we don't, that means we hate America. I agree America should come back to Christ, but there are limitations.

    The Separation of Church and State is something we have to accept. The Separatists (as I call them) want God and Christ out of every American citizen's life! This must not be allowed. Even though America is going to collapse soon (thanks to the Separatists) , we need to pledge our loyalty to show we support our nation and appreciate everything it stands for! Give me another nation that has:

    1.) Freedom of religion
    2.) Freedom of Press
    3.) Freedom of Assembly
    4.) Freedom period!

    [ June 27, 2002, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: ATeenageChristian ]
     
  14. The Galatian

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  15. Lauren

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    i saw this a few months ago on another DB and i think its timely now.........Credit for authorship goes to an anonymous student in Arizona

    Now I sit me down in school

    Where praying is against the rule

    For this great nation under God

    Finds mention of Him very odd.

    If Scripture now the class recites,

    It violates the Bill of Rights.

    And anytime my head I bow

    Becomes a Federal matter now.

    Our hair can be purple, orange or green,

    That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.

    The law is specific, the law is precise.

    Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.

    For praying in a public hall

    Might offend someone with no faith at all.

    In silence alone we must meditate,

    God's name is prohibited by the state.

    We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,

    And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.

    They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.

    To quote the Good Book makes me liable.

    We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,

    And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.

    It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,

    We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.

    We can get our condoms and birth controls,

    Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.

    But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,

    No word of God must reach this crowd.

    It's scary here I must confess,

    When chaos reigns the school's a mess.

    So, Lord, this silent plea I make:

    Should I be shot; My soul please take!

    Amen
     
  16. The Galatian

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    How sad for you. Your school is violating the law, you know. They can't impose a prayer on you, but neither can they stop you from praying.

    In fact, the ACLU will help you if you find that you are prevented from doing private prayer in school.

    Want to do an "at the flagpole" prayer? The ACLU will intervene if the school stops you, and you complain.

    What neither the ACLU nor the Constitution will protect, is the imposition of a prayer by the goverment, or any person designated to do it.

    Is that the problem?
     
  17. Eric B

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    I don't know why we even worry about this. The majority of people in this country are not even saved, and their use of God's name means little, except to keep everyone thinking we're good and religious without even repenting or really thinking about what God's will for our lives is. (And to keep Christians thinking that we've created this great kingdom of God on earth). Like Michael Horton (Alliance of Confessing evangelicals) says, we spend too much time pushing for an "amorphous American deity", and that's precisely what that reference to Vishnu and Zeus is talking about.
    If anything, it looks like this country is being stripped of its superficial spirituality, and this is something people who really want to see God's name truly hallowed should applaud.

    [ June 27, 2002, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
     
  18. rlvaughn

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    The appeals court decision does not relate to people being forced to say the pledge. Whether that happened or not, people could not legally be forced to say the pledge before the appeals court ruling. What this court seems to be saying is not that forcing people to say the pledge is [un]constitutional, but that saying the pledge (at least in a governmentally sanctioned setting such as a school) is unconstitutional. Everyone should not get too worked up one way or another over this now, for it is certain to be appealed (to either the full 9th circuit or the Supreme Court).

    Even Gephardt thinks this decision "poorly thought out." Wow! :eek:

    [ June 28, 2002, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
  19. The Galatian

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    As someone mentioned, the Catholics, specifically the Knights of Columbus, organized the drive to do this. They had decent intentions, even if the imposition of such a pledge is unconstitutional.

    It's a little thing, and it does little harm, other than cheapen the concept of God a little, for nonbelievers.

    I really don't care much about this one; there are worse abuses by far going on even now in many public schools.
     
  20. Morat

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    I love that one. It's so full of lies.

    Any school preventing a student from praying (so long as he's no sacrificing a goat during class, or witnessing while the teacher is trying to teach) is violating the child's rights. Children are allowed to carry Bibles, pray, and practice their religion in a non-disruptive manner.

    All that is forbidden is for teachers to force children to pray.

    A fact you should be grateful for, not upset over. Your child's teacher might lead them in a Catholic prayer. A Buddhist chant. Teach them Mormon or Jehovah's Witnesses' theology...

    Preventing teacher-led prayer protects your children.
     

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