Plucked out of His hand

Not "work" but love…

John 15
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

1 john 3
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

HankD

 

Hank shouts AMEN!

HankD

 

Not "work" but love…
</font>[/QUOTE]Earlier in the thread, Scott J said " If we must do something to keep salvation then it is not Christ that saves us. We would in fact be saving ourselves." Are you saying we need to "do" something: love?

All I meant is that if you do step out of Christ's hand (no one is "plucking" you), you are an easier target for Satan. Just like a wolf cannot "pluck" a sheep out of the shepherd's hands - but if the sheep wanders away from the shepherd first, and is out of his hands, it is easier for a wolf to devour it.

Who said I'm busy making sure I don't cross that invisible line? Living a Christian life simply keeps one away from it. But if there is no line, where does it matter where I wander, for I'll never cross it?

Please provide scriptures for each.

I don't do my best to keep my salvation, I said do my best not to sin. Do you not do the same thing?

I totally agree. I'm just saying that Noah still had the free choice to jump off the ark anytime he wanted to.

Maybe. But consider what you are quoting from: the Lord had three servants, each servant *belonged* to the master. Two of the servants were faithful, and received the blessing you quote (Matt 25:21&23). But what was said to the servant that was not faithful? "Thou wicked and slothful servant" (vers 26), and then in verse 30 "cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Now I have heard some say that the "outer darkness" is the outer rim of heaven, but I don't buy that. So this passage, to my reading, shows a servant that belonged to and believed in his master, yet because he was unfaithful (by grace are we saved through faith), the servant lost the master's grace because grace could not work through faith.

 

I am not His servant, Brian, but as an adopted child of God, His friend and sister. God uses everyone as a servant, as He allows nothing to happen which does not benefit those who are His in one way or another. As such, servants may come and may go, but a child is in the family for good.

 

Helen, I'm just responding to *your* point. You said I am confusing salvation with running the good race, having Christ say "Well done, good and faithful servant." I merely pointed out what happened to the unfaithful servant. You brought it up.

[ September 18, 2002, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

[ September 18, 2002, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

If this were true then man, not God, is sovereign. Each time a man changed His mind, God would have to react. Man's will creates a reality that God must cope with. I doubt you are willing to take your interpretation to its logical end... but that is the problem. The result of the belief that you can lose your salvation is that God is robbed of His glory and sovereignty.

When I see "if", I see a condition. Maybe you don't because your views on election and predestination don't allow you any choice.</font>[/QUOTE] No. I don't because God says unconditionally in several passages of scripture (within their context) that we are chosen by Him before we even had a free will. Deal with the passages I presented and prove this to be untrue if you can.

I believe that each of the five points flow logically and scripturally from the first one. Man is totally depraved and will not seek God (Romans 3:11) of his own free will.

First, I was referring to the passage not to our will in general. The passage has to do with our election. I am not a Hyper-calvinist that thinks we have no free will at all.

I think it was Pastor Larry that gave a great answer to this objection. We do have a free will just as God does. But our free will is limited by our nature just as God's is. God cannot lie or deny Himself. Until given a new nature by the Sovereign act of God, we lack any ability to do good.

Since you ask the question, I will answer although I do not believe this passage standing alone negates man's free will... Romans 9 says "Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?" How do you deal with this very plain and direct scripture?

In nature. In all Christian experience. In all human experience. Everything with a will of any measure is limited by its own nature. The "natural man" cannot understand the things of God therefore he cannot act outside of his nature and of his own free will accept Christ.

God saves us to freedom in Christ but also to be bond servants to Him. Both concepts are present in scripture.

I thank God that the Holy Spirit convicted and saved me. I don't resent Him or think Him unloving because He denied my "right" to pursue my own destructive will right into hell. Denying me my "free will" is the most loving thing He could have done.

Since you have seen it happen, the next step to take is to evaluate what you have seen by what scripture says. It says the elect will endure and that some went out because they were never of us. It does not allow for the possibility that a man can make a decision to over-ride the predetermined will of God. Our salvation is part of His perfect will not His permissive will.

We are borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. Why are there so many scriptures warning us to remain stedfast, not fall away, not turn, etc, if those things are impossible in the first place?</font>[/QUOTE] Do you reject scripture? Have you read Romans 8? I didn't declare it. God did.

God's plan for sanctifying the saints is through scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This is exactly what these warnings are all about.

I could try to give a lengthy argument but it would add no weight to the one God gave through the inspired hand of Paul in Romans 6.

Because you are a new creature in Christ, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and will ultimately seek to do God's will. We all slip and backslide. I did for several years. But God did not let me go nor change His purpose.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

You stated that you avoid sin because you are afraid of getting on the slippery slope that will lead to the loss of your salvation. This verse says we do not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear but instead the spirit of adoption.... then within the same passage says we are predestined.

Salvation cannot be sustained by the human emotion of fear any more than it can by any other human work... or lack thereof.

[ September 18, 2002, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

Anyone who trusts in anything other than Christ for salvation or to keep salvation, is neither saved nor kept!

 

Scott, thanks for your great reply. I will have to carefully consider the scriptures and your comments before responding. I don't want to just respond without weighing this carefully.

In the mean time, can you answer a couple quick questions for me:

- what is an apostate?
- I know we've already briefly discussed Luke 8:13, but what of my comments about them "receiving" and "believing" the word before they fell away?
- is eternal security dependent on election and predestination? ie. if election and predestination are true (as defined by Calvinism), does that force eternal security to be true?
- why is it important to believe in eternal security? What difference does it make if I believe it, since it doesn't change how I live and I'd have it even if I don't believe it?

 

What if someone initially trusts Christ for their salvation and to keep their salvation, but then several years later sees things differently?

[ September 18, 2002, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

Brian T,

Many Calvinists including myself do not like the term "Once Saved Always Saved". In my opinion Classical Arminianism is more Biblical than OSAS teachers such as Charles Stanley or Charles Ryrie, Zane Hodges. Calvinists general prefer the terms Perseverance or Preservation of the saints as a more accurate statement. Many OSAS's emphasize one's salvation experiance or conversion experiance as proof they are saved. EXAMPLE: a Person has lived ungodly for 50 years yet on his death bed declares he is going to Heaven because he asked Jesus to save him when he was 10 years old and because of that event he is going to heaven though he has never shown any fruit of salvation. The problem with that is the Bible never uses one's Salvation experiance to give one assurance but rather the Bible asks the question ARE YOU TRUSTING IN JESUS CHRIST NOW AS YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR? since faith without works is Dead. The worst example of Easy Believism theology is Charles Stanley's hideous book ETERNAL SECURITY (Which can almost make a Calvinist such as myself into a Arminian ). The best book on the subject I have read is SAVED FOR CERTAIN by John MacArthur.

[ September 18, 2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

No, its part of being a child of God.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

HankD

 

No, its part of being a child of God.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
</font>[/QUOTE]Hank, I'm not asking to be confrontational, I really don't understand: why is "remaining faithful" considered a "works" based salvation and "loving" is not? What happens if a Christian stops loving?

 

Everyone has bad days and the assumption is that it is only a temporary thing. But if a Christian stops loving and goes to hating then perhaps he/she only had a religious experience and were "churched" but not redeemed.

The Corinthians Church had many who were sick and even "slept" (died). They were saved but were judged by our Heavenly Father because they failed to judge themselves. To judge ourselves is not to maintain salvation but to maintain our fellowship with God and our brothers and sisters.

So in the Book of Hebrews...
Hebrews 12: 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Also in the Book of 1 John The one who is born of God cannot sin. But we still have the flesh which we are to mortify/crucify. If we don't maintain our fellowship by keeping the flesh under through prayer, confession and the Word, we quench the Spirit and the love of the Father diminishes in our lives. If we continue in sin until it becomes a present participle kind of sin (habitual) then we will in all likelihood suffer chastisement, scourging or even physical death if we don't respond righteously.
The sin unto death (IMO) is typified by the Christian who sleeps" in 1 Corinthians because God has judged him as a son but not as a worldling.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

HankD

[ September 18, 2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

A person or institution that departs from sound doctrine. The term may or may not refer to a genuine Christian.

I would key on "had no firm root". The Holy Spirit is a "firm root." I interpret this as those who who have some head knowledge plus an emotional experience but without any genuine repentance or change.

My niece did this a couple of years ago. She reformed herself for a few weeks then went right back to her old sins. She was convicted. She knew the changes that should take place but her's was an attempt to act like something she wasn't.

Others would obviously object but my answer is yes. I believe both election and preservation to be parts of scripture's teaching on salvation.

Because it goes to the core of who gets the glory for your salvation- who is sovereign- and by what power and will you remain saved. And because... it is what the Bible teaches to be true.

I will answer the larger implied question first then try to narrow it to your specific question.

...Because the purpose of creation is not the salvation of man. The purpose of creation is to bring glory to God. The old confession says the chief end of man is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever.

Not only does your having it bring glory to God by displaying His grace, your believing it also brings glory to God through your submission to His Word and recognition of His grace. Giving man power over the dissemination of God's grace denies His glory and mercy. It denies His sovereignty over His creation. It denies His love for us by presuming that our continuing faith empowers His love.

 

Yet Noah could still open the window (8:6) and remove the covering (8:13). He wasn't in lockdown.

Scott, I haven't forgotten about you. Still digesting....

 

Yet Noah could still open the window (8:6) and remove the covering (8:13). He wasn't in lockdown.</font>[/QUOTE] No. But what in his nature would have caused him to jump out. More importantly, since God chose to preserve the human race through Noah, Would He have allowed Noah to jump out?

No problem. My views developed over several years of considering the scriptural arguments for various ideas. I really struggled with God's foreknowledge as well.

I am not big on experential proofs but my own life serves as one. I was saved young and had a good testimony in my school. But during my college and early career years, I backslid and sinned greatly. However, God loved me and did not let me go even though I wasn't loving to Him. He chastened me and restored me, though I still bear some scars.

All things have worked together for good to one that loves God and is one of the called according to His purpose.

 

If you may, consider the only way for Noah to go was up

[ September 19, 2002, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Ernie Brazee ]