Points Taken From Jesus' Miracles

Discussion in 'All Other Discussions' started by Webers_Home, Aug 2, 2010.

  1. Webers_Home

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    Saint Jesus of Nazareth

    It's ironic that Rome has yet to canonize the very lord and master of Christianity to sainthood; probably because in order to be considered for sainthood, a candidate must first of all be deceased. Well, Jesus was deceased for a little while but did no miracles, nor took any prayer requests before rising from the dead. A candidate must also have two certifiable miracles to their credit that were the result of somebody praying to them for help. Since none of Jesus' miracles are certifiable, it's to be expected he's out of the running.

    I've seen sincere Catholics protest that it would be ridiculous to consider Jesus for sainthood since he's God; while those same sincere Catholics will readily profess their belief that the Bible's Jesus is both fully God and fully Man; but obviously they really only believe he's fully God.

    Is the Bible's Jesus fully Man? Well, there are two human genealogies in Matthew and Luke certifying his legal, and his biological, descent from Adam. I should think that would settle the question. Others protest that he isn't really fully human because he didn't have a biological father. Oh? Don't any of the males on his mother's side of the family count? Her ovum's DNA was no doubt laced with lots of genes from centuries of males on her father's side of the family going all the way back to David, Abraham, Noah, and Adam.

    Still others protest that a man isn't really fully human when his only parent is a woman. (chuckle) Well, what about Eve? Are we to say Adam's wife wasn't fully human because her only parent was a man? But according to Genesis 1:27, both genders are Man; not just the males; so a man manufactured from a woman's organic tissues is just as much fully human as a man manufactured from a man's organic tissues.

    Initially, Christ's miracles are quite entertaining, but underneath the obvious, there are some subtle facets worth consideration.

    C.L.I.F.F.
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  2. Webers_Home

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    Miracle (01)

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    †. John 2:1-11 . . A wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there, and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding.

    . . . When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him: They have no more wine. Dear woman, why do you involve me? Jesus replied. My time has not yet come. His mother said to the servants: Do whatever he tells you.

    . . . Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons. Jesus said to the servants: Fill the jars with water. So they filled them to the brim. Then he told them: Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.

    . . . They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside and said: Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.

    . . . This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed at Cana in Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him.

    According to the so-called Infancy Gospels, Jesus performed miracles prior to the first of those recorded in the Gospel of John. Which raises the question: Was the water-to-wine miracle his first miracle ever or not?

    Detractors often criticize Jesus for providing the means for people to get drunk; in other words, they accuse him of product liability. (chuckle) Isn't that sort of like accusing God of product liability for creating foods since that makes it possible for people to become gluttons? And also for creating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thus providing Man with the means to ruin himself?

    Haw-Haw-Haw-Haw. It is so "human" to blame somebody else for one's own bad conduct :)

    C.L.I.F.F.
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    #2 Webers_Home, Aug 2, 2010
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  3. Tom Butler

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    Yeah, and it started with Adam.

    "That woman YOU gave me, made me do it."
     
  4. Webers_Home

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    Response to Tom Butler

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    RE: Yeah, and it started with Adam. "That woman YOU gave me, made me do it."

    (chuckle) and then she blamed the Serpent.

    Some years ago, when I was quite of bit younger and a whole lot better looking, I ran across a girl pal from my old gang in high school who had become a rather promiscuous woman by the time we were all in our thirties. She became moody and difficult after a while because I wouldn't sleep with her. One day when I was over visiting her and the four children she bore in a failed marriage; I pointed out that she seemed to be having trouble keeping a civil tongue in her head, and she replied "I'm only responding to you." Can you imagine a seemingly mature, grown-up, adult mother of four blaming someone else for failing to control her own tongue? (sigh) Instead of growing up, my old chum was still the same 17 year-old, self-absorbed brat she was in high school.

    C.L.I.F.F.
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    #4 Webers_Home, Aug 3, 2010
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  5. Webers_Home

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    Miracle (02)

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    †. John 4:46-54 . . Once more he visited Cana in Galilee, where he had turned the water into wine. And there was a certain royal official whose son lay sick at Capernaum. When this man heard that Jesus had arrived in Galilee from Judea, he went to him and begged him to come and heal his son, who was close to death.

    . . . Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonder; Jesus told him; you will never believe.

    . . . The royal official said: Sir, come down before my child dies. Jesus replied: You may go; your son will live. The man took Jesus at his word and departed.

    . . . While he was still on the way, his servants met him with the news that his boy was fine. When he inquired as to the time when his son got better, they said to him; The fever left him yesterday at the seventh hour. Then the father realized that this was the exact time at which Jesus had said to him, "Your son will live." So he and all his household believed.

    . . . This was the second miraculous sign that Jesus performed, having come from Judea to Galilee.

    Capernaum was located at the north end of the Sea of Galilee in the vicinity of the ruins of Kefar Nahum.

    Cana is thought by some to have been located five miles northeast of Nazareth; which would have made it roughly fifteen miles southwest of Capernaum as the crow flies. So I seriously doubt the nobleman traveled to see Jesus on foot.

    Jesus remarked: "Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders; you will never believe."

    Believe what? Well, Jesus' primary mission was to establish the theocratic kingdom predicted in the Old Testament; and he proclaimed himself the king of that kingdom everywhere he went. The nobleman believed in the Bible's God, and he also anticipated the theocratic kingdom; but he, as well as many others, wasn't convinced Jesus was the king of that kingdom. After his boy recovered, the nobleman changed his mind; which isn't necessarily a good thing. If people can only be persuaded by miracles, then they can be taken in by satanic emissaries with the ability to do some pretty amazing things.

    The magicians that stood against Moses duplicated three of his miracles: the serpent (Ex 7:10-12, the blood (Ex 7:20-22, and the frogs (Ex 8:5-7). In the future, a holy man will have the power to give life to a statue and cause whoever refuses to worship it be put to death. (Rev 13:11-15)

    In the post resurrection era, how many people to date have been led to Hell by various miracles and apparitions like Our Lady Of Fatima, the Miracle Of The Tilma, and Our Lady Of Guadalupe?

    †. Gal 1:6-9 . . I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

    †. 2John 8-11 . . For if you wander beyond the teaching of Christ, you will not have fellowship with God. But if you continue in the teaching of Christ, you will have fellowship with both the Father and the Son. If someone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don't invite him into your house or encourage him in any way. Anyone who encourages him becomes a partner in his evil work.

    What that's saying is that proprietary teachings like the Roman Catechism, the Book of Mormon, WatchTower Society publications et al; and/or apparitions should never be permitted the liberty to either overrule, invalidate, or add to the Bible; no, not ever.

    C.L.I.F.F.
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    #5 Webers_Home, Aug 3, 2010
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  6. jaigner

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    What does this have to do with anything?

    God is not male the way I am male. It does not seem appropriate to make that point.
     
  7. Webers_Home

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    Response to jaigner

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    RE: God is not male the way I am male.

    The Bible's God is not only not male the way you are a male, but He isn't even human— He's a ghost.

    †. John 4:24 . . God is spirit

    RE: It does not seem appropriate to make that point.

    Had I made the point about which you are upset; I would agree. My point in the opener was that Jesus is human rather than that God is human. There are no human genealogies in the Bible for God, but there are two for Joseph's son.

    C.L.I.F.F.
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  8. DHK

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    He portrays himself as male in the Bible to give us understanding of Him. The names he gives to himself are male names. He came into this world as a man, the man Jesus Christ.
    This is either an ignorant statement (and I mean that politely), or a deliberately heretical statement, which I trust is not. I hope you will go to the dictionary and look up the word "ghost." There are no such things as "ghosts," spirits of the departed dead doomed to wander this earth. It is a belief of the occult, the paranormal, but not of Christianity.
    There is a genealogy of Christ in Matthew 1, and in Luke 2. Jesus is fully God and fully man: the man-God. To deny either his humanity of his deity is heresy.
    One genealogy traces Christ back through Joseph's line, and the other through Mary's line, not through Joseph's line. This is where you err. It sets out to show that Christ is the Messiah, the son of David, heir to the throne of David which can only be the Christ, the Son of God.
     
  9. Webers_Home

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    No response

    this post cleared off by Webers_Home
     
    #9 Webers_Home, Aug 3, 2010
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  10. jaigner

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    Agreed, but it would seem that God portraying Himself as male is clearly divine accommodation.

     
  11. DHK

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    In our common vernacular I would never refer to God as "a ghost." That is too profane. The Old English used the word "Holy Ghost," but words have changed over the course of 400 years. Nothing wrong with that term, even today, as we all know what it refers to. Personally I prefer Holy Spirit, and Spirit with a capital "S".
     
  12. DHK

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    Even the Holy Spirit, throughout the Bible is referred to in the male gender.
    The strongest argument for this is in the example of Jesus himself.
    His disciples came to him and asked him: Lord teach us to pray. Jesus said, "Pray after this manner,

    Our Father who art in heaven.

    He always referred to God as His Father.
    We refer to God in the trinity as: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
    Jesus, as God, sits at the right hand of the throne of God.

    There is nothing female about the essence of God.
    He always portrays himself to mankind as a man.

    BTW, this is a fellowship forum. Perhaps if Weber wants to debate such topics he should start them in one of the debate forums, and/or request the moderator to remove it to an appropriate forum.
     
  13. Webers_Home

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    Miracle (03)

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    †. John 5:1-9 . . Some time later, Jesus went up to Jerusalem for a feast of the Jews. Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades. Here a great number of disabled people used to lie— the blind, the lame, the paralyzed.

    . . . One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him: Would you like to get well?

    . . . Sir: the invalid replied, I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me.

    . . . Then Jesus said to him: Rise; pick up your mat and walk. At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.

    I used to wonder why Jesus didn't go round the pool and heal everybody there that day: why just that one man? Well, it needs to be remembered that Jesus never acted on his own initiative nor independently of his heavenly commander's wishes. Though Jesus may have liked to heal everybody there that day, it was God who singled out that one particular man.

    †. John 5:19 . . I tell you the truth; the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

    †. John 5:30 . . By myself I can do nothing

    †. John 9:4 . . I must work the works of Him that sent me

    Jesus' commander had a political motive. Healing that paralytic man led to His emissary becoming embroiled in a Sabbath dispute with the local Jews; and subsequently to even heavier issues than that, eventuating in the Jews seeking to assassinate the Lord for calling God his own father and for making himself equal with God.

    Jesus and the paralytic man were pawns in a maneuver to deliberately instigate a confrontation with the Jews and God's son; during which Jesus spoke only the words His father prompted him to say so that God was the Jews' real opponent in that incident. They saw only Jesus, but behind the scenes the Old Testament's Yhvh was pulling the strings and yanking the chains.

    †. John 12:49 . . For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a mandate, what I should say, and what I should speak

    C.L.I.F.F.
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    #13 Webers_Home, Aug 4, 2010
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  14. Tom Bryant

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    the Lord Jesus is a "pawn" ????:confused:

    The more you write the more you reveal of yourself.
     
  15. Webers_Home

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    Response to Tom Bryant

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    RE: the Lord Jesus is a "pawn" ????

    No, not "is" a pawn; but rather "was" a pawn; isn't that what all sacrifices are in the long run?

    Webster's defines a pawn as: one that can be used to further the purposes of another. In that respect; the Bible's Christ was the ultimate pawn.

    †. John 4:34 . . My food— said Jesus —is to do the will of Him who sent me and to finish his work.

    †. John 5:30 . . I seek not to please myself, but rather, Him who sent me.

    †. John 6:38 . . I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of Him who sent me.

    †. Php 2:8 . . And being found in fashion as a human being, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Paul instructed Christians to adopt Jesus' pawn mindset. (Php 2:5)

    Christians unwilling to sacrifice themselves a pawn to further God's agenda, are unworthy to identify themselves one of Christ's followers.

    †. Matt 10:38-39 . . Anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

    Your attitude, if you identify yourself as a Christian, should be this:

    †. Matt 6:10 . . Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.

    It is far too common for Christians whose minds are dominated by the concepts of Jesus' divinity to lose sight of the fact that he is first, and foremost, a servant; in point of fact, God's righteous servant.

    †. Isa 53:11 . . By his knowledge My righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

    RE: The more you write the more you reveal of yourself.

    The longer I stay here, the more I expose every one of my hecklers for the cheap goods they really are.

    †. Mtt 3:10 . . And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    C.L.I.F.F.
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  16. Webers_Home

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    Miracle (04)

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    †. John 6:1-14 . . Some time after this, Jesus crossed to the far shore of the Sea of Galilee (that is, the Sea of Tiberias), and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the miraculous signs he had performed on the sick. Then Jesus went up on a mountainside and sat down with his disciples. The Jewish Passover Feast was near.

    . . . When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip: Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat? He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.

    . . . Philip answered him: Eight months' wages would not buy enough bread for each one to have a bite! Another of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, spoke up: Here is a boy with five muffins of barley bread and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many? Jesus said: Have the people sit down.

    . . . There was plenty of grass in that place, and the people sat down, about five thousand of them. Jesus then took the muffins, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish. When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples: Gather the left-overs. Let nothing be wasted. So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the muffins left over by those who had eaten.

    . . . After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say: Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.

    The koiné Greek word for "fish" in that passage is somewhat ambiguous. The word is opsarion (op-sar'-ee-on) which can mean either a whole fish, or a fish gravy; or fish flesh salted and dried as a condiment; i.e. a seasoning.

    It seems highly unlikely to me that the boy's mother would send him off with a lunch consisting of fresh fish, but rather, cured fish like smoked salmon; and the portions were appropriate for a lad rather than a grown man. He had enough bead and fish for two kid-sized sandwiches, with one piece of bread left over for emergencies. I find that amusing because my wife is a kindergarten teacher and her kids bring their own goodies from home for snack time. Honestly, some of those tykes' mothers must think their offspring are going off on a trek with Lewis and Clark judging by the volume of victuals they haul to school in their back packs. Talk about overkill!

    Anyway the lad had the fixings of what amounted to two Filet-O-Fish sandwiches which you can pick up at your local McDonald's for about $3.19 apiece.

    The lack of food among a crowd so great reminds me of Woodstock. Venders sold thousands of hot dogs because many of the concert goers came utterly unprepared for a three-day stay out in the middle of nowhere. But the people who followed Jesus weren't just unprepared; no, they were in want. In point of fact they came out to hear him just for the free food. (John 6:26)

    Noah's ark is often ridiculed by the scientific-minded that it couldn't possibly have carried enough food aboard for all the animals' needs for an entire year. I agree, it couldn't; that is, if you limit your view of the Flood as a non-miraculous event and leave the Bible's God out of the picture.

    C.L.I.F.F.
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  17. billwald

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    >There is nothing female about the essence of God.
    He always portrays himself to mankind as a man.

    Right! The Holy Spirit (called Wisdom in proverbs) represents the female aspect of the Trinity.

    The point I get from the miracles is that Jesus did them to make a theological point. He could have poofed every living person into good health but he didn't.

    Second, he only did miracles when he could claim the credit.

    Third, in the story of Moses and Pharaoh, both sides did the same sort of stuff but Moses' side did it better.
     

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