Featured Pole: Who here believes Israel and the Church are one and the same?

You lost me. Provide the other half and show how Gill is not applying 'Israel of God' to include Jews & Gentiles as the covenant people of God.

So what exactly is this convoluted theology that you hold to?

 

Gill [again, in it's entirety] on Gal 6:16:

"Verse 16. And as many as walk according to this rule,.... Or canon; meaning not the canon of the Scriptures in general, which is the perfect rule, and only standard of faith and practice; according to which we are to walk, believe, and act; but either the doctrine of justification by the righteousness of Christ, the subject of this epistle, the truth the apostle had been explaining, vindicating, and confirming; and which to depart from, is going out of the way of truth; and an abiding by it, is walking in it; and is a good rule and standard, by which to distinguish between truth and error; for whatever is contrary to that article of faith cannot be true: or else the rule delivered in the preceding verse, declaring circumcision and uncircumcision to be of no avail in salvation, but a new creature; and to walk according to this rule, is to renounce all trust in, and dependence upon any outward things; to believe alone in Christ, for righteousness and life; to live by faith upon him, and to walk in newness of life, under the influences of his Spirit and grace:

peace be on them, and mercy. This is the apostle's godly wish, unfeigned desire, and hearty prayer for all such persons, be they who they will; Jews or Gentiles, circumcised or uncircumcised: by peace he means, a view of their peace with God, made by the blood of Christ; peace in their own consciences, which passes all understanding, and arises from a comfortable sense of justification by the righteousness of Christ, of pardon by his blood, and atonement by his sacrifice; and which is enjoyed in a way of believing; and also peace with one another, among themselves as brethren, which is a very desirable blessing: in short, it includes all prosperity and happiness, inward and outward, temporal, spiritual, and eternal: and by "mercy," he designs the love and grace of God, to sinful miserable creatures in themselves, which is the spring and fountain of all peace and prosperity; and which is displayed in the covenant of grace, and all the blessings of it; in the mission and incarnation of Christ, and redemption by him; in regeneration, forgiveness of sin, and complete salvation; and intends a fresh discovery, manifestation, and application of the mercy of God to his children; who often stand in need thereof, being distressed with the guilt of sin, or are under desertions or afflictive providences, at which time to have mercy showed them, is exceeding suitable and agreeable: when the apostle wishes these to be "on" them, it signifies that these blessings come from above, as every good gift does; that they descend as a cloud, and rest upon them, and abide with them, refreshing, comforting, and protecting them: he adds,

and upon the Israel of God; which is a further description of the persons, for whom he prays for these blessings; and is not to be understood by way of distinction from them, but as an amplification of their character; and as pointing out the Israel, by way of emphasis, the Israel, or Israelites indeed, the spiritual Israel, as distinct from Israel according to the flesh; see 1 Corinthians 10:18. The "Israel of God," or as the Arabic version reads it, "Israel the propriety of God"; which he has a right unto, and a claim upon; who are chosen by him, Israel his elect; who are redeemed by him, out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation; who are called by his grace, and are styled Israel his called; who are justified in his Son, and by his righteousness; and for whose sake he is exalted as a Prince and a Saviour, to give them repentance and remission of sin; and who are, or will be saved by him, with an everlasting salvation; and is a name that includes all God's elect, whether Jews or Gentiles: though it may have a particular respect to such of the Israelites, or Jews, God had foreknown and reserved for himself; and who believed in Christ, and walked as new creatures, without confidence in the flesh. The Jews themselves own, that strangers, or proselytes, shall be called by the name of Israel; so they {b} explain Isaiah 44:5, latter part.

{b} Jarchi & Abarbinel in Isa. xliv. 5."

 

I believe that the Church and Israel of the NT to be one and the same.....

 

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Gill is wrong on several counts. The other half that was ommitted is found in bold above. "Them" refers to the gentile saved and "Israel of God" refers to the FULL circumcised Jews (physical and spiritural circumcision)

Second, the "rule" refers that which was just stated in verse 15 or the new birth - "new creature."

 

You thank only those who agree with you?

 

Of course it is Willis. The dispensationalists, with their convoluted teaching of men (one must have charts, diagrams, manuals to follow it), deny the clear truth of scripture with their insistence on a distinction between Jew and Gentile within the kingdom of Christ.

....and is an oft repeated theme throughout the NT concerning ISRAEL, THE COVENANT PEOPLE OF GOD:

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11:12

and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3:22

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 9:12

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

You are wrong by forcing your presuppositions onto/into the scriptures in a huge way here, and insisting on the distinction of two entities where the scriptures plainly say there's only one. I mean, really, most of the context of the epistle to the Galatian Churches was all about refuting the efforts of the Judaizers, and clearly Paul was letting these Churches know that THEY were the 'Israel of God', just as he was in the epistle to the Saints at Phillippi (Phil 3:3) that THEY were 'the circumcision who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh'.

 

In regard to the way of salvation, and that is what all the above texts are speaking about, that is true - there is no difference - all are saved the very same way without distinction of MALE or FEMALE, bond or free or Jew or Gentile.

But in regard to God's promises in connection with ethnic purposes of salvation of THE LOST there is a clear difference as Old Testament Scriptures predict God leaving one ethnic group (Israel) as his primary focus of redemption and going to the "gentiles." In the New Testament that shift in enthnic redemptive goals is made clear between the ethnic distinctions of Israel verus gentiles in Romans 9-11. It is in that context of saving THE LOST that clear ethnic contrasts are still in play and God still is going to save "all Israel" as an ethnic nation in the near future (Rom. 11:25-28).

 

....what a crock of manmade dispensational goobly glock. Or is it actually your garbage that you're espousing here? You got a chart or diagram or manual that can be referenced concerning "ethnic purposes of salvation"?

 

I gave you a reasonable and BTW a very Biblical based response that cannot be overturned. You, on other hand reduce this discussion to insults and accusations without any substance.

 

I'm assuming this is a poll, not a pole. They are not the same.

 

No charts or diagrams to show me?

How many 'Israels' are there in your complicated theology?

You keep harping on Ro 11 as if it changes the clear teaching of the rest of scripture that there are not two entities within the kingdom of Christ, there is now only one:

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10:16

If Ro 11 is teaching a future en masse grafting back in of 'ethnic Israel', it will be a grafting back to that which they were broken off from, the new covenant Church.

 

To expound a little deeper:

If Ro 11 is teaching a future en masse grafting back in of 'ethnic Israel', it will be a grafting back to that which they were broken off from, the new covenant Church the true Israel of God.

 

Again, your statement is simply false. It is the ethnic nation of Israel that was cut off! If salvation equals being grafted in again then being cut off would equal loss of salvation. That is what your explanation must deal with - on again off again salvation.

What they were cut off from is not the church unless you believe YOUR KIND OF CHURCH includes lost people? Do you?

 

Because of unbelief. They entered not into the sabbath rest of God because of disobedience and unbelief which the type of the wilderness generation illustrates. These were redeemed by the blood of the passover lamb and freed from the house of bondage that were refused entrance into the land of milk and honey and wandered in the wilderness for the rest of tier lives because of their unbelief, MOSES AND AARON INCLUDED.

If by salvation you mean eternal life then in no way is that what I mean. 'Saved' is not synonymous with the birth from above or eternal life. Entering the kingdom, the sabbath rest of God, grafted in, is all about a covenant relationship with God here on earth, not about one's eternal destiny.

You come up with some of the most unfounded nutty conclusions. And it's not lost people, it's LOST SHEEP. It's sheep, NOT goats, they're not bound for eternal destruction, but are out of place. When they are brought home into the fold then they become 'SAVED SHEEP'.

 

Thank you! Hence, it is the NATION OF ISRAEL that was cut off and which will be grafted in again. The grammatical connections between Romans 11:25 and Romans 11:26 demand that the antecedent for "ALL ISRAEL" is what had been cut off - the NATION OF ISRAEL.

There is only one covenant of redemption and it is the blood of "the everlasting covenant" and one cannot be cut off from that covenant because it was settled before the world began and includes all the elect. That covenant relationship is all about one's eternal destiny. The nation of Israel was not "cut off" from that covenant (Rom. 11:5-6).

What they were cut off from was the immediate sphere of God's redemptive work on earth. God calls out His people from two different classes of people on earth - Jews and Gentiles. The two trees represent the two sources from which God calls out a people. Previously God's major sphere or source had been among the Nation of Israel but now he has "cut off" Israel as the major source and turned to the Gentiles as the major source. However, some gentiles were saved previously when Israel was the major source and so now some Jews are saved when the Gentiles are his major sphere/source for calling out a people. He again will turn back to Israel and turn away from the Gentiles as His major source/sphere for redemptive work. The visible administrative kingdom of God has been taken away from Israel also. The "keys" of the kingdom had been taken from them or the administrative authority within the professing kingdom of God and had been given to a new house of God that would be inclusive of all nations (Mt. 28:19; Acts 1:8) and whose work would remain chiefly among the gentiles until the second coming of Christ or to the "end of the age" (Mt. 28:20).

I never once said "goats" and "lost sheep" are "lost people."

 

Sorry my friend, but duty calls and I must leave the forum while I perform other business. Will return later today or tomorrow.

 

I'm weary of this. Got pressing things to tend to.

 

Revised this post before taking my leave.