Political activism by Christian? Just another escape from reality.

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Daniel David, Jan 22, 2004.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    We see so much of it. We see it done by moralists who aren't Christians (James Dobson and the Pope). We see it done by people who claim to be Christians and yet distort the truth again and again (Kennedy and Moore). We see it done by so called Christians who believe it is their job to help usher in the kingdom (ala postmillenialists).

    It is everywhere. Well, everywhere except in Scripture. The silence that is so deafening is that of Christ and Paul and Peter and John and Luke and Mark and Matthew. They went about the business of the father.

    Christ started the church at pentecost and his followers are to continue to proclaim salvation in Christ alone.

    Nowadays, we have christians proclaiming salvation by having a moral society (just check out the My people thread in the General discussions). A moral society still goes to hell and are not in any way righteous.

    We have christians being disobedient to the mandate that Christ gave them in favor of the easy road of political activism.

    I must reiterate:

    CHRIST WAS NOT AN ACTIVIST AND HIS FOLLOWERS MUST NOT BE EITHER

    Christ and his followers lived under totalitarianism and didn't do a thing to change it. Yet, in a free society, christians have become lax by complaining that it just isn't like the good ole days.

    Tragic. Sad. A sign of the times.
     
  2. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace
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    Emphasis mine!
    Best be cautious DD, your judgementalism is showing!! :D :confused: [​IMG]
     
  3. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    My belief about Dobson and the Pope are directly from their own statements and actions. I DO have the right to judge their statements and actions by Scripture.
     
  4. Precepts

    Precepts
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    You ought to rename the thread "Anti-activist is now involved in activism".

    Do the marbles in your head really roll like that? [​IMG]
     
  5. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Glad to see you can intelligently participate in a thread. :rolleyes:
     
  6. just-want-peace

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    Would really love to see the info to prove the assertion; in context please! Thanks! [​IMG]
     
  7. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    jwp, that isn't the point of this thread.
     
  8. russell55

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    Okay, so I enjoy your posts, and more often than not, agree with them. But if you don't want statements like that to be the point of your thread, why do you make them? You've gotta know when you make them that someone's gonna be provoked by them and unable to resist responding....
     
  9. just-want-peace

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    You are the one that introduced the personalities! Why name names if they aren't relevant to the thread? :confused: :confused:
     
  10. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Fine, add Dobson to the list of people who are Christians if you want. That doesn't change the point of the thread. Political activism is a shortcut to what God has said in his word. Those with sound theology aren't trying to clean up the outside of people.
     
  11. Bartimaeus

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    Dan D
    Let me get this straight, your position is that: When I am a Christian and I become politically active, I am trying to "clean up the outside of people"?

    Thanks ----Bart
     
  12. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace
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    This does not answer the request for info on Dobson!
    The original request was:
    Can you supply this without the end runs & stutter steps? If not, then just say so & that will end this phase of this thread. Thanks
     
  13. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    jwp, this does not change the point of the original post at all. Why are you so persistent on this? Apparently you wish to discredit the original post by arguing the salvation of dobson.

    Okay, I have three reasons off the top of my head that you are more than welcome to PM me about.

    This thread is about political activism. Try to follow along.
     
  14. Watchman

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    DD: I can understand where you are coming from and I would hate to see the Church seen as a mere political organization.
    But does that mean that moral issues are not to be discussed, not only to the public, but to the government as well? Does the Church (that is, those in the Church) have no obligation to speak out?
    Abortion-okay. The recent controversy about the F word on television-take no stand on that?
    The government in the 1st century was the Roman Empire, speaking out would only get you crucified. We do not have that form of government now.
    Surely you do not mean that the Church should be gagged. (?)
     
  15. LandonL

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    Erm, just because Christ and his disciples weren't involved in politics, do not say they weren't necessarily activists--they were more religious activists, yes, but activists nonetheless. Such a message as Christ introduced was unheard of, and as such to advance it required ACTIVE advocacy of it, else it would not have spread throughout the Roman empire. And how do you explain Paul's appeal to Caesar? Seems remarkably similar to government lobbying, to me.

    Don't knock it just because you don't agree with it. You don't know anyone's heart, and by saying what you have said of the Pope, etc, you show arrogance. While I may or may not agree with you, such is not our place, friend. And also don't get so uppity when someone asks you for documentation. Truth is important here, and you should be able to provide it when someone makes a request.

    Respectfully,
    --Landon
     
  16. gb93433

    gb93433
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    Certainly what you wrote is a sign of the times. What you are advocating is truly a sign of the times--complacency. It seems that you indicate that Christ did not set out to change the world. The gospels are full of what the gospel does and what Jesus did. How much more active could He have been.

    It's quite a serious charge to call someone a heretic. It seems to me that your claim has no basis. It seems that the the charge needs to be leveled against the one who hasn't read his Bible.

    Your judgment smacks of Romans 2:1, "Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."

    The following is from the book Growing True Disciples by George Barna , pages 128 - 132


    Let's Be Real

    Truthfully, while disciple-making must be a priority for you, by whatever means you select, you must enter the process with your eyes open. What happens when you make true disciples - not just students or group members, but real zealots for Christ?

    Peoples lives change
    The collection of disciples - the true Church - gains favor with the world.
    Society is changed by the disciples.
    Society experiences turmoil as a result of the Church being true to God's truths and commands.
    Disciples are persecuted.

    Making disciples and being a disciple is not a complete joyride. Disciple-making is not the answer to every cultural problem that exists - in fact, an effective discipleship process may create new tensions and animosities within the culture as God's principles clash with Satan's principles in the battle of spiritual kingdoms. But the hardships that arise as a result of engagement in disciple-making are no excuse to avoid or minimize our devotion to the process and its outcomes; in fact, they are an indicator that the Church is being the Church. As long as the battle between good and evil persists, we will not experience a peaceful, loving, wholly satisfying society. However, while being avid, passionate disciples of Jesus Christ will not bring about the perfect society, the thrust to be true disciples is the answer for each of us, individually, in the quest to become pleasing and honorable people in God's eyes.

    We cannot help but have a positive impact on the world when we are being Christ-like, even though the results of our life may not always look pretty. Not even Jesus, the Son of God, the Prince of Peace, the Savior of Humankind, was loved by all people. If we follow His ways and His footsteps, we should not expect to be loved and accepted by everyone either. But God, the Father of Creation, was completely pleased with the work of the Son - and that was all that mattered to the Son. So Jesus is our model and that is our challenge: to gain the acceptance of the Father, by imitating the work of the Son, through the empowerment of the Spirit. The results that emerge are up to God to disentangle. That is a task clearly beyond our capabilities.

    When you hire people, you study their lives to look for clues as to what they will be like as an employee. When you buy products, you study the contents and reviews to determine which products will provide the outcomes you desire. As you strive to become a disciple and to make disciples, keep your eyes on the substance of the subject, whether it is you or someone whom you are discipling.


    Here's what you're looking for - and, if it's absent, what you are trying to infuse within the true disciple:
    the passion of Stephen
    the joy of the post-Pentecost apostles
    the integrity of Nathanael
    the availability of Mary
    the perseverance of Paul
    the transformation of Peter
    the wisdom of James
    the servanthood of Martha
    the love of John
    the generosity of Joseph the Levite from Cyprus
    the seriousness of John the Baptist
    the studiousness of Luke
    the humility and reverent faith of the centurion
    the evangelistic sharing of Andrew
    the character of Jesus


    None of these stalwarts of the faith (with the exception of Jesus) was a perfect representation of each of the qualities listed here. Each of these individuals stood out for a handful of qualities, and presumably worked on developing other qualities that brought them into greater conformity with Jesus' life. As you study their paths to glory keep in mind that even the models of our faith fell short of the glory of God. By our very nature, we always will; but by God's will, we must not accept our limitations as excuses to give up.

    The real obstacles to becoming a fully devoted, zealous disciple of Christ are not money, time, methods or knowledge. The major obstacle is the human heart. When that changes, all else changes. Jesus frequently reminded His disciples that the problem was not one of knowledge but of character The Pharisees had more religious knowledge than they knew what to do with but they lacked the character to apply it in ways that transformed themselves and their world. Judas spent many months living with Jesus, observing His ways and His miracles, learning timeless and transforming principles directly from the lips of the Master, and yet all of His knowledge and experience could not compensate for a wicked heart. A disciple is a person of Christian character. Just as Paul instructed his young disciple Timothy, if you develop appropriate character, the rest will follow.
    Go, Therefore ...
    Be a true disciple. Go and make disciples.
    And what will it look like, when it works?

    True discipleship produces holistic personal transformation, not mere assimilation into a community of church members.

    True discipleship is witnessed by people who are determined to be a blessing to others - people who are never content to simply accept and enjoy God's blessings to them.

    True discipleship creates Christians who aggressively pursue spiritual growth rather than passively experience spiritual evolution.

    True discipleship spawns individuals who develop renewed lifestyles instead of believers who mechanically check off completed assignments on a developmental agenda.

    True discipleship results in people who are more concerned about the quality of their character than the extent of their knowledge.

    True discipleship builds churches known for their culture of love, commitment and service rather than for their events, information and programs.

    True discipleship;/b] facilitates people devoted to a lifelong journey to imitate Jesus Christ, rather than the completion of a short-term regimen of tasks and responsibilities.

    Do you passionately want to become a zealous disciple of Jesus Christ? Are you committed to bring others with you on that amazing journey?

    Discipleship is about complete obedience to the Word of God, driven by a heart that can stand to do nothing less and a mind that knows it pays to focus on nothing less and a mind that knows it pays to focus on nothing else. Can we fulfill this mammoth challenge? Jesus, our mentor, says we can. "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in Me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these..." (John 14:12)
    If you are devoted to the process of spiritual growth, and to allowing God's Holy Spirit to shape you on that journey, how you end up will bear scant resemblance to what you were when you began the journey.
     
  17. gb93433

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    Could you give us a few examples?
     
  18. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace
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    This seems a rather odd answer since you have publically denied the faith of at least one man(Dobson) that seems to me to be a devout Christian; all I know about the Pope is that he's old, and is the Pope, so no quibbling there.

    If you're going to openly deny Dobson's Christianity, be man enough to openly produce your reasons! [​IMG]

    I guess because I requested some simple information to back up your claim, and so far all I have is evasions. Makes me curious just what is your REAL motive!? :confused:
     
  19. Daniel David

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    gb93433, Barna isn't really taken seriously by conservative thought. He is really more for the moderates and church-growth, errgggg, marketing ilk.

    I have the right and duty as a Christian to examine the words and actions of everyone who claims any kind of religious teaching authority. He claims to be an expert in his field (he isn't). You miss what Romans 2:1 is about, but that is obvious.

    Jesus and Paul and Peter and the rest WERE NOT POLITICAL ACTIVISTS WHO TRIED TO CHRISTIANIZE THE LOST. They evangelized them. Political activism is a way to ease the conscience of lazy christians who want the easy way out.

    jwp, perhaps you should reread the first post and try and intelligently respond to the post. Your childish baiting by questioning my manhood is laughable. Perhaps you could address the issue. I already said that for all I care you can put dobson in whatever group you want.
     
  20. Jimmy C

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    Our boy Danny Davey loves to accuse, question and denigrate. He called Professors at SWBTS and the BH Carroll Institute apostates without any knowledge of the people he was denigating. he will not provide any documentation on Dobson because there is not any, there was only the shock value in Danny's making a pronouncement.

    Hey Danny, they know we are Christians by our love. In my time on this board I have seen no love from any post you have written.
     

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