Poll: #2, Suicide & Lapsi

Peter repented and preached Christ to a crowd of more than 3000 on the day of Pentecost. Repented sins are no longer remembered.

But one who denies the Son and never repents will certainly open his or her eyes in hell once they close in death on this earth.

 

That is my exact point, Standingfirm said that it is cut and dried, "no a lapsi will not go to heaven". I disagree and so do the scriptures.

thjplgvp

 

Ed,

Everyone knows that Judas gave his life to support suicide. :smilewinkgrin: :laugh:

thjplgvp

 

To continue from the related "Are they Saved", http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=36491&page=33 which just closed:

Again, this is a fabricated definition of "faith". Trusting in something else to save you (such as your own righteosness, of trying not to sin) is whoring after other gods. MSo is making anything else, such as "end of misery" the object of "faith".

 

To me, this entire thing about Suicide is taken back and forth to extremes, throwing in things about whether or not someone is mentally ill and so forth, so it just confuses everything.

If you want to talk just about the Once Saved Always Saved thing... I believe Ezekiel 18 still holds true. If you turn away from your loyalty to God you will be lost:

Ezekiel 18:
24: When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

The reason I believe if you turn away from your loyalty to God you will be lost, is that you have a CHOICE, and you are a human being who is making the decision to desert God, so to speak. It doesnt matter if 20 years ago you "believed".

There will be no rebels in Heaven. Thats what it all comes down to.

When you come out of the grave at the second coming of Christ, if you had been in rebellion against God when you went INTO the grave you surely are not going to suddenly be loyal to Him. No "magical" changes at the Resurrection.

Thats really what people here are saying, that at the Resurrection those who were wicked and claiming to be Christians are going to experience some sort of "magical transformation" and turn into true Christians all of a sudden against their will.

Well that is false. However you went down into the grave, that's how you're coming up out of it... either loyal to God or in rebellion to His Laws. And God isnt going to allow rebels in Heaven to start the rebellion up again. If you're going to hold on to sin, you are going to be going down with it, along with Satan and his evil Angels, into the Lake of Fire. And that is because you love sin more than you love God, shown by your refusal to let it go.

Claudia

 

You know what this is REALLY all about? It is all about ABIDING in Christ, STAYING there with Christ...

If you die in a state of REBELLION against God you arent going to Heaven because you were not ABIDING in Christ. He isnt just a Guest for a night... You open the door and LET HIM IN!



1Jn:2:28: And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

How do we show that we "abide" in Him? Note that the verses below explain how to tell whether or not you are "abiding" in Jesus and He in you:

1Jn:3:6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

"If a man love Me," Christ said, "he will keep My words; and My Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." John 14:23.

To "abide" in Christ, you must "die to self" and no longer walk in the flesh... Jn:12:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. (that would be the fruits of the Spirit)

1Jn:3:14: We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1Jn:2:10: He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

1Jn:3:24: And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jn:2:6: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

You do not see any "just believe" there do you? What we hear about abiding in Christ is... he who sinneth not, he who keeps My words, he who dies to self, he who loves the brethren, he who keeps the commandments, he who walks as Jesus walked... it is THEY who are abiding in Christ! Remember, John clearly said that ONLY if you abide in Him, will you have confidence at Jesus' second coming! The wicked shall be consumed with the glory of His brightness. 1Jn:2:28: And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
2Thes:2:8: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming." Sin and all those who cling to sin will be consumed!

The wicked, they who choose to cling to their sins and not let them go, will be heading for the hills and begging the mountains to fall on them to shield them from Christ! They will NOT have confidence. And why? ...obviously because they were NOT abiding in Him!

Luke 23:27-30: "And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us."

Isaiah 2:16-21: "And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. And the idols he shall utterly abolish. And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth."

You are either going to get rid of your sins and your idols NOW or else you will do it LATER, when it is too late! And if you expect to have confidence before God in that day, you MUST abide in Jesus... ALONE!

Let me put this in very simple terms. You MUST cling to Jesus alone for merit, for salvation. You MUST not trust to your own works for salvation. Anything you offer to God in the way of good works to gain salvation will be rejected as "filthy rags". Period! HOWEVER, you CANNOT cling to Jesus with one hand and cling to sin with the other! Drop it! Cling to Jesus with BOTH HANDS! Let His Holy Spirit dwell in you, abide in you and you abide in Him... CLING TO HIM... and the fruits of the Spirit (love, etc) will appear... NOT SIN!

1Jn:3:7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness IS righteous, even as he is righteous.

1Jn:3:18: My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Brothers and Sisters, LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU! Do not allow anybody to convince you that works have nothing to do with your salvation. This is a terrible deception, and this "works do not matter" lie comes from Satan himself.

Someone who commits suicide or murder at time of death is no different than someone who is just clinging to their idols and refusing to let them go.

And people can use all these extreme examples of suicide all they want but all they are trying to do is to make it appear that it is OKAY to depart from God.

 

The reason Jesus say to WATCH because He is coming AS A THEIF is because IT MATTERS, the state, or spiritual condition you are in at the second coming AND at time of death.

Rv:16:15: Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.




READ THIS... IT MATTERS the condition you are at time of death... KEEP YOUR LAMPS BURNING! at all times... The Foolish Virgins got caught UNAWARE AND UNREADY!

Luke 12:
35: Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36: And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37: Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38: And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39: And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40: Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41: Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42: And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43: Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

 

Also, I just want to say that I dont know much about Once Saved Always Saved and Perserverance and all the technical terms..

But I do know that it seems as though you guys really dont believe God will keep you and cause you to perservere till the end, because you believe you can be IN REBELLION against God in the end.

I think you just invented something that sounds good on the outside but is used to cover up sin and rebellion on the inside.

And I think that you are trying to use all of these EXTREME situations like suicide in different situations to try to play upon people's emotions, which is NOT good.

All you are doing in reality is lulling people to sleep in their sins and causing them to really rest secure in their rebellion against God. Intead od watching and waiting and having their lamps trimmed and burning, awaiting the return of their Lord, be it at the second coming or at death and the resurrection.

Claudia

 

Thats what this all is REALLY all about... being caught unawares and prepared or unprepared. At time just before death. And people are trying to convince us it is ok to go along with our lamps NOT trimmed and burning, watching and waiting... Jesus said He comes as A THIEF... and blessed are those who are found doing what they are supposed to be doing... at an INCONVENIENT time...

 

Unless a person puts their ENTIRE trust on Christ, that person is not saved.
If you are depending on your works in anyway, shape or form, to get you to Heaven, you are not saved, and are not going.

What is scary is that the Devil has tricked people in all religions to believe that they have to be good to go to Heaven.
If I could be good enough to go Heaven, Christ died in vain.

My righteousness is His righteousness... That is all I have to offer God.
We are going to Heaven based on Christ's life, not ours.

Or did God lie?
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

Suicides will not go to heaven. They have been shown to be in apostasy and have believed the lie instead of the truth.

 

You may as well ask "Can someone who once believed in Christ and then goes and blows up an Elementary School and kills 400 people right before he dies be saved?"

and if you believe in this Once Saved Always Saved thing you should answer YES.

Because "works have nothing to do with your salvation"

its just crazy.

But of course in THIS CASE people would use the "No they werent ever really saved to begin with" line.

 

I would say yes, because our salvation is based on Christ's holiness, not ours.

Did Christ sin?
No.
His sinless blood was shed for my sins.

If you don't believe in OSAS, then what sin will keep you out of Heaven?
Pride is a sin as much as Suicide, or murder..
So is not witnessing.
So is Gossip,
So is .....

You see, where will you draw the line?
To know to do good, and don't do it, it is a sin.
If you fail to witness to everyone that comes your way, it is a sin.

Have you witnessed to people today?
If not, you have sinned, and according to your logic, then you are on your way to Heaven.

Can Christ lie?
Does He know you as one of His today, right now as you are reading this...Does Christ know you?

If he does, then if you stand in front of him and he says "depart from me, I NEVER knew you" He would be lying... because he knows you now.

Yes I am secure. If I die right now, I am going to Heaven
If I die 10 yrs from now, I am going to Heaven.
If I commit suicide, I am going to Heaven.

Otherwise you make Christ out to be a liar.

 

And the word murderers in Rev has nothing to do with suicide...

Homicide, yes...not suicide
G5406
φονεύς
phoneus
Thayer Definition:
1) a murderer, a homicide
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5408

 

Tim,

Suicide is self murder whether you want to call it murder or not.

One of the definitions of he word for killed in Acts 16:27 is murdered