Poll: #3, Suicide & Lapsi

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Ed Edwards, Jan 11, 2007.

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Will Suicides & Lapsi go to hell?

  1. 1. Unsaved suicides go to hell

    57.9%
  2. 2. saved suicides go to hell

    15.8%
  3. 3. non-repentant lapsi go to hell

    10.5%
  4. 4. repentant lapsi go to hell

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. 5. OSAS suicides & lapsi go to heaven

    47.4%
  6. 6. Ignorance & Apathy: I don't know &/or I don't care

    15.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Poll: #3, Suicide & Lapsi

    Will Suicides & Lapsi go to hell?
    (pick all that apply)
     
  2. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    Ed,

    Nooooooooooooooooo Not this subject again! :)


    Actually I am beginning to kind of enjoy it though. It is challenging...

    ....except that the choices in the poll dont allow for variables. In who you think goes to Hell... as in differing circumstances involved. Because I believe that God looks at all the circumstances to determine this.

    Claudia
     
  3. Gershom

    Gershom
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    The question really comes down to the doctrine of salvation. What does it mean to be saved? How are we saved? What are we saved from? In whose hand is salvation secured? By whose work are we saved and was that work sufficient or do we need to add to it?

    This, I believe is where you find the answer.
     
  4. Claudia_T

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    I believe it comes down to loyalty to God verses rebellion against God. Because there will not be any rebels in Heaven.
     
  5. Gershom

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    What part does Jesus play in the equation?
     
  6. Ed Edwards

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    Here is the OSAS (once saved, always saved) key passage:

    John 3:16-17 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For God so loued ye world,
    that he gaue his only begotten Sonne:
    that whosoeuer beleeueth in him,
    should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Sonne into the world
    to condemne the world: but that the world
    through him might be saued.

    This passage shows that
    'be saved' = 'should not perish, but haue euerlasting life'

    Salvation starts with 'whosoeuer believeth in Him' that
    is believes in Jesus. 'not perish' has no end.
    'everlasting life has no end'. Salvation has no end.

    Salvation starts when you accept Jesus as your Lord,
    He becomes your Savior. That Salvation is eternal.

    OSAS isn't about the weakness of humans, it is about
    the POWER OF GOD to save through Messiah Jesus.

    Needless to say, OSAS is NEVER a license to sin, for
    there is no license to sin, it is totally unscriptural.
     
  7. Gershom

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    Ed understands the doctrine of salvation. :jesus:
     
  8. Claudia_T

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    Hi Gershom,


    The way I view this is that Jesus does the drawing us to Himself. We view Him on the cross ...innocent sufferer for our sins that we deserve to suffer for... in beholding His love the Holy Spirit softens our hearts and we repent of what we have done, repent meaning we are truly sorry for our sins.

    God forgives us when we accept the sacrifice of Christ, realizing we have done nothing whatever to deserve this atonement in our place.

    The repentence is a gift and so is faith. We accept these gifts. The measure of faith is given to every man.

    The Spirit of God works upon our hearts to effect this great change in us.

    Continuing on as we first accepted Jesus we walk in the same way...

    The Spirit of God reveals to us our sins as we continue on beholding Christ in His perfection. We look at Him and we look at the perfect Law of God... The Spirit shows us our unlikeness to Him and all the time we are making our choices as to whether we want more of Jesus or whether we want the sin. It is our choice...

    God works continually through His Holy Spirit to transform us.

    Each and every step of the way it is a gift from God.

    But if we choose not to accept these gifts and to respond, then we harden our hearts towards God "Today if you hear His voice harden not your heart" ... TODAY... each day.... you choose.

    Heb:3:15: While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts

    Heb:3:13: But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

    If you persist in your sins God will slowly withdraw His Spirit from you, leaving you in the darkness which you have chosen.

    Finally, in the end, those who choose to hold onto their sins, are choosing to have Satan as their Master and they will go to the Lake of Fire with him... because they refused to give up their sins.

    Rom:6:16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    ...thats why you ultimately end up there in Hell... you made the decision to obey Satan rather than God... you are choosing to be in rebellion.


    Claudia
     
    #8 Claudia_T, Jan 11, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 11, 2007
  9. Ed Edwards

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    Jesus saves.

    Jesus saves forever.

    Matthew 24:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
    But he that shall endure vnto the end,
    the same shall be saued.

    This argument (logical term) is TRUE because of
    the above scripture:

    If a person shall endure to the end;
    Than that person shall be saved.

    Logic dictates that the following argument:
    If a person shall not endure unto the end,
    then that person shall
    not be saved.

    is independantly true or false from the statement:

    If a person shall endure to the end;
    Than that person shall be saved.

    So if you want to prove this argument:
    If a person shall not endure unto the end,
    then that person shall
    not be saved.

    from the Bible, then prove it. But you can't
    prove it from Matthew 24:13. (you also can't
    prove it from other sayings from the Mount
    Olivet discourse).
     
  10. Gershom

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    So, ultimately, salvation is of man? How far can a person persist in rebellion and still be saved? One hour? One day? One week? A month? One second? One moment? A single thought? Two thoughts?

    What I am trying to understand is how you believe that Jesus died for our sins, but then it's up to us to maintain that salvation. How much, how far, how little? Who decides?
     
  11. Claudia_T

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    No let me ask you a question, what exactly do you think this means?


    Romans 6:
    18: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
    19: I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
    20: For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
    21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
    22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.


    I dont care HOW you say it.... if in the end you dont have this described above, to arent going to be in heaven.

    But the truth is you must do it by faith through the power of the Holy Spirit.

    No matter how you look at it, if you dont do as described you WONT have eternal life!


    Just as it clearly describes here:


    1Jn:3:15: Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

    You can argue all day till the cows come home WHO did it and we all know Jesus has to do it in us, but if it doesnt get done, you wont have eternal life, and it will be because why?

    BECAUSE YOU DIDNT ALLOW HIM TO DO IT!


    well why not?

    Because you chose to be in rebellion against God. You fought against His Spirit...

    "You do always resist the Spirit of God"


    Thats why Paul said "I die daily"... he chose to die and allow the Spirit in His place.

    EACH AND EVERY DAY!
     
    #11 Claudia_T, Jan 11, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 11, 2007
  12. Claudia_T

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    And as far as the question goes... "well how many sins can you have then and still be saved?" Its not how many sins that is the issue... its Rebellion verses loyalty once again! It all has to do with having a clear conscience before God!

    I think there are sins we are not aware of, the key is maintaining a clear conscience before God:

    Acts:24:16: And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.


    but thats just my opinion..


    Jesus is our Mediator, our Advocate... we need to be aware of that and take advantage. And its not just to confess your sins but the thing is that if you make a practice of meditating upon what you have done and/or not done during the day and talking to God about it and asking Him to reveal your sins to you... and confess them then... it helps you to become more aware of what you do and what you need to change ...


    Psalms 139:
    23: Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
    24: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.


    But the Seventh Day Adventists believe in the Cleansing of the Sanctuary doctrine which has to do with being cleansed of sin and Jesus acting as our Mediator, etc and so this becomes important to us...

    As I was taught ... does this sin mean more to me than Jesus? with each sin you need to ask yourself that question and make a choice.
     
  13. DHK

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    Is it possible to live in a state of complete loyalty to God?
    Or is it quite possible that we all in some way live in a constant state of rebellion since we can never measure up to the standards that God has set forth for us.

    Be holy as I am holy. Are you as holy as God? Will you ever be? Not on thise earth. Therefore you live in a state of rebellion.

    Be perfect as I am perfect. Are you as perfect as God? Will you ever be? No. Therefore you live in a state of rebellion.

    Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul.
    Do you do that. Can you honestly say that you love God with all your strength, and all your heart. and all your mind. Is every thought of your mind concentrated on the Lord every minute of every day? Is all of your wakening strength devoted to Him and Him alone.

    Love your neighbor as your self.
    No man does that, not really. What is the first thing you do when you get up in the morning--get dressed? Do you clothe others? Think of the parable of the good Samaritan who clothed the one robbed.
    You wash, brush your teeth, take care of your body.
    Do you do that for others? Take the poor in, care for their wounds, their bodies, etc.
    You have your food, breakfast, etc.
    How much do you feed the starving masses of the world? How much are you involved in missions? How much do you love your neighbor as yourself.
    Most people are quick to quote that command, and slow as to its understanding.

    Are you living in violation of these two great commandments. Perhaps most of us. Perhaps it is impossible not to live in a state of rebellion.
    Some food for thought.

    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
     
  14. Claudia_T

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    DHK:


    without me going into the details of all that you said... Do you think that this was true or false?

    Lk:1:6: And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


    and what about this, is this true or false?


    Job
    1: There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.



    Because I dont see God as legalistically as all of you seem to view Him.

    I dont see Him as winding things up to the greatest capacity and then waiting there to whop you over the head with a stick if you dont measure up


    and what you are saying to me is that each and every command we are told to do, God is commanding us to do things that are impossible just for the heck of it?


    also Luke 10:
    25: And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
    26: He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
    27: And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
    28: And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

    Why would Jesus answer this man when he asks what he has to do to inherit eternal life... by telling him he must love God with all his heart, soul and mind, and his neighbor as himself, if it were an impossibility and then give him the example of the Good Samaritan? Was Jesus lying?

    My point is that I think that God must think we are capable of serving Him "good enough" in our hearts to approve of us. I dont think we need to view things as harshly as you and others do... as in winding it up to the highest degree of legalism because God isnt legalistic as all that. He just wants our love and loyalty.

    another thing is that I never said I have no sin. You will never ever see me claiming to be sinless. I think its a false doctrine.
     
    #14 Claudia_T, Jan 11, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 11, 2007
  15. Claudia_T

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    But I have to say I thought that was a really good point, DHK, it was a good challenge. I mean the way that you put it.
     
  16. DHK

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    Therein is the purpose of the law.
    We are not good enough, nor will we ever be.
    If we are honest with ourselves we will admit that we don't even measure up to our own standards much less the standards of a holy and righteous God.

    That is why salvation is all of grace. Christ paid the penalty for all of our sins. He paid it all with his blood, being shed for us on the cross. There is nothing that we can do. We aren't good enough to do anything. We are poor wretched blind sinners lost in the depths of sin. Only Christ can save. He saves us on the merit of His work on the cross, not on any merit of our own. There is nothing that we can do. Thus the Bible says "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
    There is nothing to be done, but believe. He paid the penalty for all my sin; and that is what grace is. It is His grace.
    For by grace are ye saved through faith.
     
  17. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother DHK -- Preach it! :thumbs:

    Of course, now that I'm saved I'm going to do some good
    works. We are born again unto good works (we are
    not born again BY good works).
     
  18. Janosik

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    Can we say that if there are no good works that we were not born again?
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    That is fairly correct.

    However, it has happend before and will
    happen in the comming Tribulation Period.
    Aborted Christian: one whose first public testimony declaring
    Jesus as Lord results in the loss of their life.

    We who live past our salvation point - we aught to go
    about filling our lives with good works. Not filling our lives
    with good works trying to work our way into heaven;
    but filling our lives with good works because it is the least
    we can do for our blessed Lord and Savior: Messiah :jesus:.
     
  20. Janosik

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    So the Aborted Christian wasn't saved? Or was and lost the salvation?
     

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