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Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by LadyEagle, Dec 16, 2004.
Jesus told the Jews that their father was the devil. If they do not serve Jesus, then they do not worship God, period.
Was Jesus speaking to all Jews or just the Pharisees in that passage?
Only those Jews who embrace Jesus as the Christ are worshipping the same God as Christians. (John 14:6)
Just the Pharisees who were Edomites, the decedents of Esau who's father is the Devil.
The Jews believe in the God of the Old Testament.
Christians believe in the God of the Old Testament.
Therefore, Jews and Christians worship the same God.
However, I would contend that God is not pleased with Judaism's worship, for it rejects God's son. To use an analogy, it's like this. A Jew and a Christian are walking on the same mountain, but the Christian takes the path toward the peak while the Jew wanders around the base. The Jew may be on the right mountain, but he/she is not on the right path, so he/she will never make it to the top.
Since Jesus Christ is fully God, then the god the Jews worship are not the same God we worship. They disavow 2/3rds of the Trinity.
He who denies the Son----denies who else????
The God of the OT is not the same as the God of the NT?
Poll Results: Poll: Do Christians and Jews Worship the Same God? (12 votes.)
Poll: Do Christians and Jews Worship the Same God?
Yes. (Please explain) 42% (5)
No. (Please explain) 58% (7)
Yes HE is the same God. 'In the beginning... man in OUR image'..... The Jews deny the Son and the Holy Spirit, hence they deny the Godhead.
When Jesus was 12, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem for the Passover Feast. It was that year, when they were returning home, they discovered that he was not with their traveling party. He was still "in his Father's house".
The Jews worship(ped?) the Father, God the Father, as Christians know him. They just don't accept Yeshua as Messiah. Yes, Jews and Christians worship the same God. Jews just haven't come on board all the way (yet). They have the book of Isaiah (and others, Malachi), but just won't bring themselves to accept Yeshua.
Excellent insight, James. I'd never thought of that.
Muslims also believe in the God of the Old Testament. If all of the Christians, Jews and Muslims were to be destroyed today, which would end up in heaven? It doesn't matter who "believes in God", it's putting your faith in Jesus Christ that matters.
To answer the question of the OP:
Almighty God consists of three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Spirit. An arguement can be made that, if you deny part of the Godhead, you deny God. If this is the case, then anyone who denies the Son or the Spirit (including Jews) denies God.
OTOH, the arguement can be made that worshipping God is not synomymous with understanding God. Indeed, many people here on this board got saved before they ever cracked open a Bible, and before they ever had any concept of the Trinity. Does this mean they were worshipping a false God? Many of our founding fathers were not Christians, but were deists. Does this mean they were worshipping a false God?
In the NT, Paul writes about his encounter with Athenian polytheists, who, among other gods, had an alter that was dedicated "To The Unknown God". Rather than condemning them, Paul instead praises them for their faithfulness, recognizing that the Athenians are a deeply religious people, seeking to worship what they did not know (in other words, in ignorance), but desiring to know. Paul then goes on to say "it is the Unknown God that I wish to tell you about". Interesting. Paul could easily have stormed in and said "you guys are worshipping a false god". But he doesn't he speaks to that which they seek in their hearts; that is, their desire to understand their creator.
When putting that in reference to non-Christian deists today, we need to take Paul's example.
Sure, we could say to the Jew "you're not worshipping the True God because you deny the Son and the NT"; or to the Muslim "you're not worshipping the True God because you reect the God of the Bible"; or to the Mormon, "you're not worshipping the True God because you have replaced Bible doctrines with the BoM". In all those cases, we may technically be correct. However, this likely will produce no fruit, and not bring anyone closer to a relationship with the God we know. Rather, we need to take Paul's approach, and recognize their sincerity in desiring to seek God, and then proceed to tell them about the God they worship but that they did not know out of ignorance.
I'm sure some of you will disagree with the methodology, but I know that this has worked for me when sharing the Lord with Jews, Muslims, and Mormons. And we know that it certainly worked for Paul.
We owe a lot to the Jewish people, if they didn't deny him us "gentile's would not have had a chance to be included in His kingdom. I believe it's all in God's plan and in his misterious ways, he has it all figured out so I put my trust in Him!
What did Jesus tell Nicodemus???
"He that believe on Him(Jesus---Messiah--God in the flesh, emphasis mine) is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."--John 3:18(straight from the lips of God in the flesh!!)
A person living in condemnation cannot worship God!
Then again Jesus says, "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life, and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him."--John 3:35-36
Pay attention to the last phrase---"but the wrath of God abideth on him."
How did saved people worship in the OT?? The same way that saved people worship today--as the same that anyone who has ever truly worshipped God---in Spirit and in Truth!!! There's only one way to worship in Spirit and in Truth--and that is through Jesus Christ---who IS spirit and who IS Truth!!
JohnV, please use spellchecker!
"Arguement" should be "argument" and "alter" should be "altar." In fact, I've seen "altar" spelled that way a lot on the BB, for some reason. I think we have more credibility with unbelievers if we at least spell basic words correctly -- many may not think it's important, but a lot of misspelled words that are not typos, especially basic words, conveys a lack of intelligence even if that is not the case. I am not saying this in a mean-spirited way, just as an encouragement.
At this point of time, no.
How can anyone really worship God before they are saved?? I think it is possible to be saved without understanding the Trinity but eventually that person, if really saved, comes to know about and believe in the Trinity. If they continue to deny the Trinity after supposedly being saved, I would say they are probably not saved.
Yep. The deist God is hardly the God of the Bible.