Poll: For whom did Christ die?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Mar 4, 2010.

  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom
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    For whom did Christ die? Take a look at the following graphic representation of the possible categories and tell us wich groups Christ actually died for. The graphic is here:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/album.php?albumid=24&pictureid=140

    If you can't read the categories on the chart, they are:
    1. Unfallen angels
    2. Old Testament believers
    3. Believers living during Christ's ministry (on earth)
    4. All who will come to belief in Christ.
    5. Old Testament unbelievers.
    6. Unbelievers living during Christ's ministry (on earth).
    7. All who will die without faith in Christ.
    8. Fallen angels.
     
  2. Paul3144

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    2,3,4,5,6,7. Christ died for all men and He elected on the basis of foreseen faith.
     
  3. Amy.G

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    I don't need a bb poll to tell me who Christ died for.

    Joh*3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    Joh*3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    Joh*3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


    1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
     
  4. asterisktom

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    Its not a BB poll. Its just me.
     
  5. Amy.G

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    Sorry. I meant "graphic presentation".
     
  6. asterisktom

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    More About the Christology Test

    I had asked you to think about just who Christ died for:

    1. Unfallen angels
    2. Old Testament believers
    3. Believers living during Christ's ministry (on earth)
    4. All who will come to belief in Christ.
    5. Old Testament unbelievers.
    6. Unbelievers living during Christ's ministry (on earth).
    7. All who will die without faith in Christ.
    8. Fallen angels.

    The usual quick responses are variations of "Christ died for everyone." or "Christ died for everyone, you unbelieving liberal!" But when pressed to the actual breakdown of the question, which I have tried to do with the chart, many are forced to say that, well, He didn't die for the angels, fallen or unfallen. The last-mentioned don't need rescue, the first are beyond it. At any rate Scripture clearly teaches that God "does not give aid to angels", Heb. 2:16.

    But what about the rest? What about fallen humanity, categories 2- 7?
    Surely Christ died for all these. But a closer inquiry, with an open Bible, forces us to qualify even this.

    But even without an open Bible, however, we can already ask this:
    Why would Christ die for those who have already lived, died and are now in Hell?

    Also: Why would He die for those God pointedly raised up to show His power in their destruction, like Pharaoh? Ex. 7:20; Rom. 9:17

    If you agree that Christ did not die for those already in Hell then you would agree with me, I assume, to cross out category 5 (Old Testament unbelievers). If you disagree with this point, I would like to hear from you.

    "Fine", you might say "He didn't die for those already dead in their sins, but there is still logically hope for those in categories 6 and 7, those who will prove to have been unbelievers, though not so at the time of Christ's free offer of mercy".

    But by what basis are these people any different from those Old Testament unbelievers? God has no need for the benefit of hindsight. His foreknowledge leaves nothing in doubt or obscurity (not to say His predestination, though, for argument's sake, I am keeping this out of the discussion). When it comes to His creatures "the night" as the Psalmist assures us "is as daytime to Him".

    The next question is, seeing that the obedience or disobedience of every soul after Calvary is just as clear to Him as the response of those before, why should Christ die for everyone, seeing that He knows those who will become believers (by His grace)? The answer is that He didn't die for everyone. He died for the elect, the elect of both Testaments, categories 2- 4 . Please consider these verses:

    John 17:8- 10:

    "For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

    I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

    And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them."


    Notice three things:

    1.That there are some for whom Christ does not pray. But who could these be, if Christ died for all humanity? And if you still maintain that Christ did indeed die for all humanity, then why did Christ not pray for these people?
    What is easier: to pray for a people ... or to die for them?

    2. Notice also that the ones prayed for are the very ones who were given to Christ by the Father - and no others.

    3. The last point is that these same people are the ones who "glorify the Father". And how do they do this? By obedience and growth in holiness. These are the ones who "follow the Lamb wherever He goes." That following is the fruit of sovereign election, not a means to it.
     
  7. asterisktom

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    OK. No problem : )
     
  8. Amy.G

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    Christ died to satisfy the wrath of God against sin. For without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.

    When you ask if Christ died for the person who will never believe and ends up in hell, the answer is that He died to satisfy the requirement of God for sin. "The wages of sin is death". He took the punishment for sin.

    But Christ's blood is applied through faith. So anyone unwilling to believe will not have the shed blood of Christ applied to them and therefore they have no forgiveness. The result being death.

    The OT passover was a shadow of this. The lamb was slain, it's blood shed and applied to the doorposts. When God walked by, those who had the blood on the door were saved.

    Christ was slain, His blood shed and applied through faith. God now sees the blood of Christ on us and we are saved.
     
  9. asterisktom

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    So - to narrow this down - you believe that Christ died for OT persons like Pharaoh, a person who was already doomed for centuries before Christ died?

    This question is for anyone. Not trying to put anyone on the spot.
     
  10. Amy.G

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    No. I said Christ died to pay the penalty for sin. I did not say He died for any particular person. I think that may be the problem here. I don't know of a verse that says Christ died for "people". It says He died for sin. He is the propitiation for sin.

    God loves the world.

    Christ died for the sins of the world.


    Webster's 1828 Dictionary [K-Z]
    propitiation
    PROPITIATION, n. propisia'shon.

    1. The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious.

    2. In theology, the atonement or atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of men. Rom.3. 1 John 2.
     
  11. Marcia

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    The prayer in John 17 is specifically for the disciples as we see in verse 12 where Jesus refers to Judas:
    This does not have to do with your OP question.
     
  12. asterisktom

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    I'm not meaning to ignore your other comments, but I just want to focus on the above for now. I can think of several verses that Christ died for specific people - for Christians: Romans 5:8, for starters. Even more telling IMO are the many verses that show Christ's death as bringing actual blessings to His people. See this list below.

    Christ's death did this for Christians:
    1. He redeems us, Eph. 1:7-8; Rom. 3:24
    2. He forgives us, Eph. 1:7
    3. He makes atonement (reconciliation) for us, Rom. 3:25
    4. He delivers us from the slavery of sin, Heb. 2:14- 15; Gal. 1:4
    5. He cleanses and sanctifies us, Titus 2:14; Eph. 5:25- 26
    6. He conforms us to His resurrection, Rom. 6:57.
    7. He brought us out of an empty, worthless lifestyle, 1 Pet. 1:18- 19.

    All of the above are blessings specifically connected to Christ's death for us. And - more to the point of this thread - they are all actual, not potential, blessings.

    But I also want to know - from anyone: Did Christ die on the cross for Pharaoh? The answer necessarily leads to one of two results:

    1. If yes: He died for someone who cannot possibly benefit from His death.
    2. If no: This is a form of limited atonement, opening the door logically to other limitations.
     
  13. canadyjd

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    John 10:14-15 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My own, and MY own know Me, (15) even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep,...."

    Jesus tells us. He died for His sheep.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  14. asterisktom

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    Well, it actually does. But to your first comment: The prayer goes beyond His disciples of the time and reaches to His disciples of all times - us:

    "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word.", v. 20

    And, because the recipients of this prayer are much broader, the scope of Christ words in verse 9 ("I do not pray for the world") are accordingly broader.
     
  15. asterisktom

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    So true. This verse is so straightforward it is often overlooked.
     
  16. Amy.G

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    Christ died for Pharaoh's sins. He died for the sins of the whole world. But Pharaoh died without faith in the one and only God of whom he witnessed great things. Therefore, he is in hell.


    Christ is the propitiation of the sins of the whole world.


    Maybe you have a different interpretation of this verse?
     
  17. sag38

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    Clearly this poll was presented with an agenda. Amy you fell right in. The moment I saw this coming from a 5 pointer it was evident where this was headed. At least Canada came right out and said what he believed. That I can respect. Come on Tom and why not say that you believe that Christ only died for the "elect," defend you position if you feel the need, and quit trying to bait someone into a debate.
     
  18. Amy.G

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    You are soooo right! Why do I keep on doing this? :BangHead:
     
  19. asterisktom

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    Your comments are silly. Yes, I have an "agenda". I love the Word of God and sharing it with others, getting encouragement. I made no secret about the fact that I believe that Christ died for the elect, and that I believe in the TULIP. All that is in the archives. Must I wear a scarlet TULIP armband to satisfy you?

    You will not believe this but it is the absolute truth: I am sick of debates - especially the ones here. It is you that wants debate, apparently.

    And, yes, I was "defending my position" - apparently too subtle for you.

    I remember now: You are the one with the agenda. When I first started posting here you maliciously accused me of being a troll, having others do my dirty work for me. People like you use to really stress me out, but I just put this - and you - in God's hands (1 Peter 5:7). If what you say about me is true, well, God evens things out. As many good deeds go unrewarded as bad deeds unpunished - none.

    Take care.
     
    #19 asterisktom, Mar 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2010
  20. asterisktom

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    Marcia, believe me, I don't want you to have a headbangy experience. I am not here to cause aggravation. For your benefit I would suggest not even reading this thread. I promise I will not address anything else to you.

    Take care.
     

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