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Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Grasshopper, May 2, 2003.
Do you believe in a future great Tribulation?
If the conclusion of the great tribulation ushers in the 1000 year reign of Christ;
And if the great tribulation took place in A.D. 70;
Then the 1000 year reign has now approached 2000 years - and John the Revelator (Inspired by the Holy Spirit) did not know what he was talking about;
Or we've been in heaven for the past 1000 years - and if that's true - I'm not happy about the condition of heaven;
Or the tribulation and the 1000 year reign are not to be taken literally.
Of course if we don't take the tribulation and the 1000 year reign literally - are there other things that are plainly written that we should not take literally?
Just being a little sarcastic - I hope you all don't mind.
When what's written makes plain sense - why do we try so hard to make any other sense out of it?
When what's written makes plain sense - why do we try so hard to make any other sense out of it?
You mean like this:
"The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)
This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)
or how about this:
There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” (Acts 24:15)
Why can't people just take this at face value? Makes plain sense to me.
If it was all just "spiritual" (not taken to be literal events of 7 literal years) and the return of Christ and His kingdom also "spiritual" (not a literal 1000 year reign), then sure, it could have already happened.
Of course, that would make those pesky angels in Acts 1 liars, since (when asked about that future kingdom) they said that Jesus would return physically and literally "as you have seen Him go".
they said that Jesus would return physically and literally
Don't see that in my version. But if He comes in "like manner" then only a few we see Him return, cause only a few saw Him leave.
Or could it mean He comes back in the clouds like He left?
P.S. Bro Bob, I saw on another post that you were familiar with the Geneva Study Bible. Do you consider it a good one? I'm looking for another one to go with my MacArthur Study Bible.
Regarding Plain Sense:
John the Baptist was not aware of the mystery of the church or the church age. His message from God to Israel was "... I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias." [John 1:23] Had Israel accepted Jesus as Messiah - the kingdom would have been ushered in. Israel rejected her Messiah - as foretold in the O.T. - so the kingdom has been postponed.
A practical way to look at it. At the end of Daniel's 69 weeks - Messiah was cut off. (This was about 3 years from the time that John Baptist made the statement in Matt. 3:2. While I do not subscribe to a gap between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 - there certainly is a gap in Daniel's 70 weeks, between week 69 and week 70. [The church age is in that gap.] In the O.T. scheme of things - there is just 10 years between Matt. 3:2 and the ushering in of the 1000 reign of Christ. Three years from Matt. 3:2 to the death of Christ - seven years of tribulation - after which the Kingdom of Heaven will begin.
Quoting from the MacArthur study Bible on this verse: " 24:34 this generation. This cannot refer to the generation living at that time of Christ, for "all these thing" -- the abomination of desolation (v.15), the persecutions and judgments (vv.17-22), the false prophets (vv.23-26), the signs in the heavens (vv.27-29), Christ's final return (v.30), and the gathering of the elect (v.31) -- did not "take place" in their lifetime. It seems best to interpret Christ's words as a reference to the generation alive at the time when those final hard labor pains begin. This would fit with the lesson of the fig tree, which stresses the short span of time in which these things will occur."
What version did you get the word "about" from?
NKJV - "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust."
KJV - "And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."
The plain sense of this verse is that there will be a resurection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. The just to life eternal - the unjust to eternal damnation in the lake of fire.
Alright Dan, 98 more to go:
1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)
2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)
3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)
4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)
5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)
6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)
7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)
8. "....the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32)
9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)
10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)
11. "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)
12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)
13. "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)
14. "The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk. 1:15)
15. "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ....They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mk. 12:9,12)
16. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Mk. 13:30)
17. “Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?” (Lk. 3:7)
18. “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. " (Lk. 3:9)
19. "His winnowing fork is in His hand…." (Lk. 3:17)
20. “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” (Lk. 10:9)
21. “The kingdom of God has come near.” (Lk. 10:11)
22. “What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." …The scribes and the chief priests …understood that He spoke this parable against them.” (Lk. 20:15-16,19)
23. “These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22)
24. "This generation will not pass away until all things take place.” (Lk. 21:32)
25. "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'” (Lk. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17)
26. "We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel.” (Lk. 24:21)
27. "I will come to you. …In that Day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.' …'Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world?'" (Jn. 14:18,20,22)
28. "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (Jn. 21:22)
29. “This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days…'” (Acts 2:16-17)
30. “He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness…” (Acts 17:31)
31. “There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” (Acts 24:15)
32. “As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come…" (Acts 24:25)
33. “Not for [Abraham's] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned.” (Rom. 4:23-24)
34. “If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die.” (Rom. 8:13)
35. “I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us.” (Rom. 8:18)
36. "It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand." (Rom. 13:11-12)
37. “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” (Rom. 16:20)
38. “The time has been shortened.” (I Cor. 7:29)
39. “The form of this world is passing away.” (I Cor. 7:31)
40. “Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)
41. “We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.” (I Cor. 15:51-52)
42. "Maranatha!" [The Lord comes!] (I Cor. 16:22)
43. "...not only in this age, but also in the one about to come.” (Eph. 1:21)
44. “The Lord is near.” (Phil. 4:5)
45. "The gospel …was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." (Col. 1:23; Compare Matt. 24:14; Rom. 10:18; 16:26; Col. 1:5-6; II Tim. 4:17; Rev. 14:6-7; cf. I Clement 5,7)
46. “…things which are a shadow of what is about to come.” (Col. 2:16-17)
47. “…we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord… …We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds… …You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief.” (I Thess. 4:15,17; 5:4)
48. “May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Thess. 5:23)
49. “It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.” (II Thess. 1:6-7)
50. “Godliness …holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come.” (I Tim. 4:8)
51. “I charge you …that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Tim. 6:14)
52. “…storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.” (I Tim. 6:19)
53. “In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self… …Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women… …These also oppose the truth… …But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all…” (II Tim. 3:1-2,5-6,8-9)
54. “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead…” (II Tim. 4:1)
55. “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” (Heb. 1:1-2)
56. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?” (Heb. 1:14)
57. “He did not subject to angels the world about to come.” (Heb. 2:5)
58. “…and have tasted …the powers of the age about to come.” (Heb. 6:5)
59. "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and it's end is for burning.” (Heb. 6:7-8)
60. “When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” (Heb. 8:13)
61. “The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.” (Heb. 9:8-10; Compare Gal. 4:19; Eph. 2:21-22; 3:17; 4:13)
62. “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 9:11)
63. “Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin.” (Heb. 9:26)
64. “For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 10:1)
65. “…as you see the Day drawing near.” (Heb. 10:25)
66. “…the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries.” (Heb. 10:27)
67. “For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)
68. “For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come.” (Heb. 13:14)
69. "Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty." (Jms. 2:12)
70. “Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. …It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!” (Jms. 5:1,3)
71. “Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.” (Jms. 5:7)
72. “You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.” (Jms. 5:8)
73. “…salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (I Peter 1:5)
74. “He …has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.” (I Peter 1:20)
75. “They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.” (I Peter 4:5)
76. “The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)
77. "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God.” (I Peter 4:17)
78. “…as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed.” (I Peter 5:1)
79. “We have the prophetic word …which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.” (II Peter 1:19)
80. “Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (II Peter 2:3)
81. “In the last days mockers will come. …For this they willingly are ignorant of…” (I Peter 3:3,5)
82. “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God.” (II Peter 3:10-12)
83. “The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.” (I Jn. 2:8)
84. “The world is passing away, and its desires.” (I Jn. 2:17)
85. “It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)
86. “Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18; Compare Matt. 24:23-34)
87. “This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” (I Jn. 4:3; Compare II Thess. 2:7)
88. “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. …About these also Enoch …prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly…'” (Jude 1:4,14-15)
89. “But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, 'In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.' These are the ones who cause divisions…” (Jude 1:17-19)
90. “…to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 1:1)
91. “The time is near.” (Rev. 1:3)
92. “Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.” (Rev. 2:25)
93. “I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world.” (Rev. 3:10)
94. “I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 3:11)
95. “And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.” (Rev. 12:5)
96. "And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:24; Compare Matt. 23:35-36; Lk. 11:50-51)
97. “…to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 22:6)
98. "Behold, I am coming quickly. " (Rev. 22:7)
99. "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10; Compare Dan. 8:26)
100. "Behold, I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:12)
101. "Yes, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:20)
This is one of the worst teachings of dispensational premillennialism in my opinion - that the church is an afterthought or a parenthesis because puny, sin-soaked man messed up God's plan and trumped it(for at least almost 2000 years). I guess that dispensational premillennialists don't refer to God as Almighty God because by their eschatology they promote the idea that He is not the Almighty.
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.(2 Tim 2:17&18)
When Hymenaeus said that, it was still future.
This is one of the worst teachings of dispensational premillennialism in my opinion - that the church is an afterthought or a parenthesis because puny, sin-soaked man messed up God's plan and trumped it(for at least almost 2000 years). I guess that dispensational premillennialists don't refer to God as Almighty God because by their eschatology they promote the idea that He is not the Almighty. </font>[/QUOTE]Ken, I am a dispy and don't believe in plan B. Will you stop with you generalizations?
I have heard Dispies call it a "parenthesis". Sorry but I can't point out all of the voluminous differences among Dispies. Generalizations will have to suffice. But I will try to modify with the words "some" or "many".
I have heard Dispies call it a "parenthesis". Sorry but I can't point out all of the voluminous differences among Dispies. Generalizations will have to suffice. But I will try to modify with the words "some" or "many". </font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps clarification is needed. Believing the church is a parenthesis is not the same as believing in Plan B. The church was always in the plan of God.
What I believe Dan Todd should have said is: Christ gave a legitimate offer of the kingdom to Israel. However, Israel would always reject and Christ was always going to continue with the kingdom.
He did not change the program of the kingdom at all.
That is an important point.
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (Ephesians 3:1-9)
If the grafting of the Gentiles was a mystery that had been hid from the beginning of the world, how could the prophets have foretold the age in which we now live? Because the establishment of the kingdom was postponed, that does not deny the sovereignty of God. It was the purpose of God to visit the Gentiles and call out a people for His name. It was the purpose of God for Israel to reject Jesus Christ so that He might gather together in one all the chidren of God that were scattered abroad. However, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. They are irrevocable. Israel will be converted in the latter day.
It may surprise you to know that I do believe in the sovereignty of Almighty God. The Apostle Paul wrote [under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: - Eph 1:4. God chose me before there was a physical Adam, Abraham, Moses, or before there was the incarnate Christ. Knowing and believing that truth is one of the most humbling things that I can think of. That before time - God loved me and chose me - a worthless - vile - undeserving sinner.
I do believe that most of the O.T. saints [writers] personally missed the mystery of the church. The apostles in Jesus day certainly did - as they were looking for Christ to usher in His kingdom.
Israel as a whole missed the Isaiah's suffering Savior. Understanding and talking about these things does not make the church an afterthought or a parenthesis - it is merely looking at things from the perspective of the O.T. saint [Jew].
Thank you Daniel David for the following quote:
You verbalized what I believe in a much clearer and less confusing way.
Thank you Primitive Baptist for the following quote:
God's revelation to man was progressive. Adam believed (faith) God based upon what God had revealed to him. The same is true of Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah, Paul, John, etc. Now that the canon of Scripture has been completed - I [all of us] have the opportunity to know all that God wants us to know - unlike the above mentioned O.T. and N.T. saints - who only had partial knowledge.
The O.T. saints, if they had any hint at all that there would be a church and a church age, had little if any indication - so based upon the revelation they had - they looked for the promised kingdom.
God planned the church - it certainly is not, nor was it plan B. It's just that it was a mystery that God did not choose to reveal until after He ascended back to Glory.
I am a pre-mil -- pre-trib -- dispensationalist who is also a believer in the sovereignty of Almighty God.
Grasshopper - I suspect that it will take me some time to go through all the verses you posted.
So when did it happen? And how do you KNOW that it's happened?
I am also a Dispy, and the parenthesis view is merely from the perspective of theological truth, and how to view the roles and prophecies regarding Israel and the Church,
I am also believe strongly in the Supremecy of God, how can you not, the attributes are biblically and logically evident
Israel is not being dealt with currently as the "children of God", the church is the current focus of God's plan, and his purpose all along was to extend his grace to the gentile nations, through the church, and later through the Jewish evangelists during the Trib.
We see so many prophecies concerning the suffering saviour at the hand of his own people, that how could anyone say that those Jewish Leaders changed God's plan, it is clear from Prophecy that the Messiah would come, he would be rejected, and at some point he would also be placed in the position of King. That is yet to come, the Jews were not looking for a solution to their sin problem, they were looking for a solution to their political problem. Probably not a whole lot you can fault them on, throughout their history, the blessings of God on Israel were manifested through the land!
There will come a day, after the church has been raptured, that Israel with once again be the focus of God's plan, and the remainder of the prophecies concerning the Messiah will literally come true.
Don't attack dispensationalism for something it is not, which is come to think of it, the only attacks on dispensationalism I have ever seen, obviously so since the substance of the theological system is tough to debate
Oh I would disagree with you quite strongly there. There is strong Biblical support for historical premillennialism, amillennialism, and postmillennialism, or else eschatology would be a cut-and-dried issue. Unless of course you think all non-dispensational premillennialists are Biblical ignoramuses, which I doubt you would do considering how many millions hold opposing views to your own, including quite good, well-known Biblical scholars.
Fortunately, practically all Christians have been less than dogmatic on eschatology down through the centuries, especially among Baptists. Let's face it, God will wind up this age the way He will wind it up, and not to suit our personal, private interpretation of symbolic passages in the Bible.
I believe in the literal interpretation of the Scriptures in their grammatical and historical context. I believe in the pre-tribulational rapture of the church saints, followed by the seven-year tribulation. I believe in the pre-millennial return of Christ to the earth and His literal rule of one thousand years. Following this one thousand years is the Great White Throne judgment and then the new heaven and new earth (I Corinthians 15:51-58; I Thessalonians 4:13-18; I Thessalonians 5:1-9; Revelation 19-22).
Amen, brother! Laurenda, that'll preach!
I mean, er, ah, sister, that'll "share".