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Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by LadyEagle, May 2, 2003.
Thank You SheEagle,
Very good poll. If no one else votes I'm in the one
hundred percent club.
God Bless ------Bart
I did a short study on Chiliasm. Are you familiar with this term and the subject matter in ref. to it?
Hi, Bart, no I am not familiar with it. Would you be so kind as to explain? Thanks.
Schailer Matthews writes (Dict. of the Bible, James Hastings ed. 1918 pg 126), that chiliasm is "a peculiar doctrine of the future, based upon a developed and literalized exposition of the eschatological pictures of the New Testament. It includes the doctrine of the Millennium (whence its name from the Greek "chilioi"), that is to say, the period of 1000 years between the resurrection of the saints and that of the rest of the dead, of the visible appearance of Christ to establish His Kingdom of risen saints and defeat an equally literal Antichrist, and of the Last Judgement". He goes on to say that, "The germ of developed Chiliasm is to be found in the teaching of the Apostles, and particularly in Rev 20; but is seems to have had no great prominence in doctrinal development until the middle of the 2nd cent.,".
I do not believe Matthews is a friend to "Chiliists". He calls it a germ, noting that germs normally turn into disease. As always true history is many times carried by the enemy of the truth and we can note the following:
1) The Apostles were Chiliistic in their doctrine, and that it was "developed" when they taught it.
2) Chiliasm dates back to the Apostles and continues through the 2nd century.
3) The doctrine had great prominence in the 2nd century.
4) The doctirne continued.
5) Chiliasm is a literalist view of eschatology.
6) Chiliasm dates before the inception of the Roman Church.
We must remember the Roman Church is a church that looks for a literal kingdom to be set up by man on this earth and God steps in and takes over. This is the position of our Post-Mil brethern. They who have sought to build the Kingdom of Christ here on earth have always had the sword in their hand to open the bowels of those who were in opposition. I am a Bible believer and I am a Chiliist and I am a Baptist! Hope this clears a few questions up.
Why else would we call it a "Blessed Hope"?
It seems pretty straight forward:
1: And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Our Lord Jesus returns physically with His saints and establishes His righteous Reign. Every eye shall see:
29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
He shall return as once He left:
9: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10: And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11: Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
They shall look upon He whom they have pierced:
10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
And His feet shall stand that day upon the mount of Olives:
3: Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4: And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
We shall behold the righteous reign of the Root of Jessie:
1: And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3: And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5: And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6: The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7: And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8: And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9: They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10: And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Come Lord Jesus!!
A servant of Christ,
Rev. 20 is perhaps the most abused text in all of Scripture. The way amills, postmills, and preterists carve up this text worse than O.J.'s job in Brentwood.
Even if a person breaks down all barriers, future and present, between Israel and the Church, that is not justification for prostituting this chapter that specifies many things in Christ's earthly reign.
"that is not justification for prostituting this chapter"
Those are unnecessarily pretty strong words, don't you think? I find them rather offensive, personally.
I do not think they are unnecessary. I believe it is a very accurate description. If a mod changes it, so be it. Even so, it is still true.
Bart, a little research I've done seems to indicate that Augustine turned away from the teaching of pretribulation of the Church. So I wonder why those who are postmill or amill would base their beliefs on Augustine, especially those of the Baptist faith.
I do not think they are unnecessary. I believe it is a very accurate description. If a mod changes it, so be it. Even so, it is still true. </font>[/QUOTE]Well, okay, then...on second read of your post, I would tend to agree.
Sheeagle, Augustine was the one that popularized amill theology. He authored a book entitled "The City of God". Basically, he misunderstood the promises and confused them with the church.
On a side note, he was a baby-sprinkler who endorsed legalized prostitution. Of course, that has nothing to do with his amill theology.
Wow! And people base their doctrinal beliefs on his writings? Wow.
The rejection of what is and was commonly called "chiliasm" is done by a resounding choir of men. This choir includes Origen, Clement, Augustine and Jerome and the little apostates Calvin and Buse as well. You ask about Augustine, he is one of the granddaddies of the Unholy Roman Whore. (Did you know that there has not been one premil pope since the Emporor Constantine?) These men were all "great spiritualizers". All interpretation of the scripture was allegorical and subject to the imagination of man. This was from the muddy waters of the Nile in Alexandria Egypt. There are alot of our Baptist Brethern who have gone fishin' in that river and have come up with a big fish with pontifical wiskers. Calvin states concerning Augustine, "If I were to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fulness and satisfaction to myself of his writings".
What about those who believe it's less than seven years away?
not of that persuasion, but concerned that they not feel left out
Does anybody know how many OT prophecies of a literal kingdom by the literal messiah (descendant of the literal David) there are?
I have never studies, but if we start taking individual passages in Isaiah alone, God would have to have "lied" [intentionally strong term, because that's what it would be] thousands of times if He was not yet planning a kingdom with the Messiah reigning!
And what about Jesus' prayer in Matthew 6?
Pray . . "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Talking about a PHYSICAL kingdom on earth TO COME, just as there is NOW a SPIRITUAL kingdom now in heaven.