Poll on Doctrines of Grace and Free Will

5 Point Doctrine's of Grace

 

:thumbs: Absolutely :thumbs:

 

Where do we find this? Show me where it says that Adam could have chosen otherwise. Many Calvinists believe that Adam did have a free will before the fall. He may have. But I wonder if you can make a case for it. What we know is that man does not have a free will after the fall.

Show me where the Bible says that sinners, unregenerate people can choose to live for Christ as an act of their own volition. They cannot do it.

 

Excellent. I was just about to say this very thing but not as well as you have said it here. Thanks.

 

You are very kind.

That is why no lost sinner can ever say at the judgment, "well, I wanted to be saved, but since I'm not one of the elect, I couldn't."

His condemnation is not that he could not, but that he would not.

 

Very true.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: to you Jim

 

TULIP

The Bibe says it, so God said it.

I believe it, and that settles it.

 

Could somebody venture to explain what a mixture of Grace and Free Will is? I cant consieve of it. thanks.

 

My oversimplified belief is this: Yes, God knows who will wind up on each side in the end, but we don't. So we should teach everyone the Gospel, and give them an opportunity to respond. And, btw, stop wasting time arguing about such matters. "Go therefore....."

 

amen :applause::applause::applause:

 

Sometimes wish we had "like" buttons like Facebook.

Well said. My vote was for the point that we can't summarize the Bible so simply. I find fault in much of the way the TULIP is held so dearly by many, yet I hold many of the same theological tenets. I find fault in the way that so many hold so dearly human free will, which I cannot find expressed in just that way in Scripture.

I agree that Adam had free will, he exercised it (once) and since, we are ever since born slaves without the same freedom to exercise our will in a salvific way. If this is best expressed in the term total depravity, so be it, but i believe that there are better ways to say that, that do not give a wrong impression.

I agree that we are all born dead in our sin and trespasses and that no action of human will or work will gain us one iota of grace from God. Spiritually dead people don't do things to earn merit, and the biblical definition of grace is "unmerited favor" which, to me at least, precludes the exercise of our wills to "come to God" in any form or fashion.

I agree that we still have some exercise of our will -- largely in areas of morality -- but that God will hold us culpable for our sin(s) even if committed in ignorance. I do not agree that the expression of our will, however sincerely held, will make the slightest difference in our salvation, for we are not capable of justifying ourselves, nor can we regenerate ourselves, adopt ourselves, seal ourselves, elect ourselves, effectually call ourselves, or glorify ourselves, those are all the sole works of God. We can participate in our sanctification, in our faith and repentance, and in our perseverance, but those three things alone do not make up the totality of salvation.

I believe that Christ died for the sins of "the whole world" (that's what the Bible says!) but that His blood will only be effective for those who are actually born again from above (all the component parts of salvation to be precise). If it was/is, then we would have to hold to a form of universalism, and that is heretical no matter how one interprets it. I do not hold to limited atonement as the first word, simply because that is how it works out pragmatically in the end. We are not free to "summarize" God in ways that He does not reveal to us in the Word.

I agree that God elects sinners to salvation, but election is not the end of the process. It is merely the beginning point. I also hold that election has become a "weasel word" these days, with people actually fighting against what the Bible has to say about this issue. Election is through and through the Scriptures, from the first chapter until the last. It is unavoidable! Election is equated with "salvation" in the minds of many, but election is not salvation, it is election -- period. With this comes the added baggage of we (ignorant) humans trying to number the elect, as if we actually can know what is known only to God! When I find some folks getting upset about election it is almost assured that I will also find them making off-the-wall claims about people who hold to that doctrine, for the most part that by our holding this very biblical doctrine WE are somehow limiting the number of people that will gain eternity. That is (to me, at least) akin to accusing the brethren of blatant sin, but such is not the case, and it is the "accusing" that is the true sin (Rev 12:10)

I find perseverance of the "saints" in the Scriptures. It is predicated on God's sovereign power and authority to hold those who are His against all odds and all enemies, including us. I also find serious warning passages against straying from the faith, adopting heretical beliefs, and/or preaching a false gospel. Here is one of the places where the differences between "religious zeal for God" and a "re-born Spirit indwelt relationship" to be most magnified. Those coming to Christ by their own wills, bowing before Him, worshiping Him for all their days, etc., but who have never been born anew are, at the end of their days, lost still. Though very religious and very zealous for Christ, doing all things in His name (we're reminded of Mat 7:21-22 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? ) they are not His until HE makes then His! Those who are His are sure, preserved, and held by Him until the end.

 

The reasons I feel the need to clarify are, (1) the considerable baggage attached to the term "Calvinism" most of which is incorrect by the ones doing the attaching (2) God's revelation is not simplistic (which is why we're still debating these points almost 2000 years later!) but it is "simple" in that we can read plainly and understand what it says (3) there is too much "reading between the lines" to fulfill certain theological vantage points that are not so easily expressed in Scripture, but that can be reasoned if certain verses are "cherry picked" and applied out of context, and (4) most of the real work of the church down through the ages has happened under the watch of those who held to a high view of God's sovereignty, and for good reason -- any lessor view, no matter how attractive, humanly speaking, denigrates God to the point where a gross violation of the first and supreme commandment, "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me..."

After that, we need to find a way to reconcile true human freedom of will (in the extent that it is capable of acting) with the sovereignty of Almighty God, who WILL do what it is that He wills no matter if we like it, participate with it, follow in it, preach and teach it, or not.

Now, on to a piece of personal testimony... I was one that an Arminian would have suggested would enter heaven "kicking and screaming." I hated the idea of God initially, and eventually put even hatred of God behind me for pure atheism (in order to hate God, one must still believe that there is a God -- and after time, I simply decided that there really was no God at all).

No one "convinced" me to accept Christ. I never talked to a single person face-to-face, nor did I ever read the Bible, a tract, or any other commonly used method of evangelism. I did not darken the door of a church, and I planned to never do so again unless forced to by some wedding or funeral. I was one of the "hard cases" that would just as well rip off the church, figure out how to de-frock a clergy, or other things as bad or worse. I took pleasure in figuring out how to spoil life for God's (stupid) followers and I was rather good at it... Some left, others questioned their faith after I got done with them. It was rather easy pickin's as most of the so-called Christians that I knew during that time really had no clue what they really believed, why, or how it worked.

It was to that man that God revealed Himself, and in such a was as to both gain my attention and also to melt my ever-so-hard heart, and it was child's play for Him! He knew just how to push my buttons... How to make what seemed to be coincidence turn to His advantage, for instance, giving the dial of a radio a spin and landing on a show where James Dobson was talking about the pain of loosing a child (the trigger point that caused me to hate God in the first place).

That doesn't just happen by accident, and it didn't happen because I was looking for God. I sure wasn't! But (oh, praise Him!) He was looking for me... I, and my family are now eternally grateful, and that not because I got all religious and joined a church. I didn't do that either -- at least not for over 2 years after God revealed Himself to me (still had little use for the church back then!). I'm still not "religious." I really don't give much care for religion at all. I'm not all that "holy" either, save for the true meaning of that term -- "set apart for God's use" -- that I am, fully and completely!

What I find when I read the Word is God's election on every page. God made Adam and revealed Himself to first man. God laid out His plan to Adam on the day Adam exercised his free will, sinned, and fell from grace. On that day, God said that He would send Messiah to crush the head of the evil one, and the rest, as they say, is history. God elected Noah and his family to carry the human race forward when all the rest of enslaved, sinful humanity was crushed beneath the waters. God elected Abram from all the peoples of the earth so that re-named Abraham could be the father of the family that would spawn the nation that would be the line of the promised Messiah.

From Abraham's family, God elected one son -- Issac -- to be the chosen line. From Issac's line, God chose Jacob, the younger, to be the carrier of the blessing. From the offspring of Jacob, God elected the line of Judah to be the carriers of the promise, but along the way, He also elected another family line to be the priests who would teach the people and hold them accountable to the revealed Word. God elected Moses and caused special circumstances to occur in that man's life so he could foreshadow the Messiah and lead God's people to the Promised Land. God elected Joshua -- Yeshua, the very name of Messiah to come -- as the leader who actually led God's elected people into Canaan.

Throughout the OT, God's election is seen as God worked His plan through history. The election never made sense to the people of that age, but it sure did once the story was told! Over and again, God elected this person or that -- often making no sense to the ones who thought it should be some other way -- and ultimately, from two separate lies of God's elected king over Israel, God elected, when the time was right, to send His Son, Jesus into the world, just like He promised to Adam way back when.

Then, Jesus came to those people that God elected, and as the Holy Spirit caused John to write, "they rejected their own..." With SALVATION walking amongst them, God's people could not see their Messiah because their "religion" said otherwise... So, that Messiah moved forward with the rest of the plan -- a plan that had ALWAYS been in existence -- to see God's elect from all peoples of the earth come to know that Messiah had come. To an elect handful of men, God entrusted the message of salvation, knowing that those most unlikely bunch of people would accomplish His will because He knows all things and never makes a mistake. They taught those of us who follow to preach the "good news" to the perishing, and to reap a harvest of the elect, who will go and do likewise until God elects to end history and start a new heaven and new earth.

Moral of this testimony/overview of Scripture?

Is your "religion" getting in the way of discovering Messiah? Sadly, for a great many people, I believe it is -- not arrogantly, nor with haughty spirit, but in all humility, realizing that God's grace is un-merited by any of my actions, my efforts, or my beliefs -- I merely plead with men to listen for that still small voice of the One True God and do what He says. For, that alone is your only hope, but that only hope will never be found as long as you are sufficient in your own ability to "choose God."

I'm no longer kicking and screaming against my Lord... He has me, and I worship Him for having me!

 

Perhaps the best post I've read since I have been on Baptist board. Thank you for sharing this tremendous testimony of the grace of God and for your exposition of election in scripture.

This should be published!

Good job.:applause:

 

I whole heartedly agree :godisgood: