Poor Pilates Plight

Then we have no need of a savior. God is the reason we all do evil. Man is innocent.

 

No, not true.

God can be the ultimate cause of evil and not be evil at all himself.

The issue is motive.

God's motive for ordaining that evil should exist is holy and noble and pure.

Motive is ALL that makes a thing morally right or morally wrong.

If I kill a man in his living room I am a murderer.

If I kill the same man on the battlefield I am a hero.

Same action same basic result- one is good and the other is evil.

Motive made the difference. Motive for one was malice. Motive for the other is defense of country.


We see this clearly with Joseph's brothers. Joseph said, "You meant it for evil but God MEANT IT for good."

Same action, different motives.

Adam's motive for partaking of the forbidden fruit was evil.
God's motive for Adam partaking of it was good.

We see this with Joseph's brothers.

Joseph said to his brothers- "You meant it for evil but God meant it for good."

God meant it. God did it. God did not just allow them to DO it- God meant it to happen.

THAT is exhaustive sovereignty.

Did Joseph's brothers make a choice? Yes. Did they choose to do with Joseph what they most wanted to do? Yes. Did God intend for them to do it? Yes. Did they do EXACTLY what God WANTED them to do- the Bible is clear- YES.

We see it again with those who committed the WORST sin in history in Acts 4:

God meant the evil to come to pass and yet he is perfectly holy and righteous at the same time.

In fact, evil is NECESSARY for God to DISPLAY his grace and mercy and love to the fullest.

God COMMENDETH his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

God uses our sin to SHOW his great love.

That in the ages to come he might SHOW forth the exceeding riches of his Grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2.

God SHOWS his great grace and receives glory for it throughout eternity by sin.

God's motive for evil existing is for his glory.

His glory is the highest and noblest of all motives for anyone to do anything- including Himself.

 

Right..and according to you, God is the cause of everything.

No, you aren't. God made you do it. God is the one that killed the man.

No, God killed him.

No, God is the one that did the things to Joseph, not his brothers. His brothers were merely the tool.

Adam did not partake of the forbidden fruit. God utilized him as a puppet and took the fruit. Adam did no wrong.

We need no savior. God is the cause and motive behind all sin. Man is purely an innocent tool. You don't blame the hammer when it strikes a nail, do you?

 

You're not being reasonable now.

The Word of God is clear that the actions of man and the actions of God work asymmetrically one to the other but that the two participants cannot be charged with moral equivalency.

God willed for Christ to be slaughtered. It pleased the Lord to bruise him.

Was it sin for God to do it? No.

Men DID slaughter Christ. Was it sin for them? You bet. The worst of sins. The most horrible sin ever committed.

They did it for evil but God meant it for good.

Both did it. Both willed it. But the motives of the two were TOTALLY different.

This is what the Word of God clearly teaches. You may continue to obstinately deny the truth because you do not find it palatable but you fight against the Word of God, not me.

 

You really think Kenneth Copeland is the spokesperson for non reformed theology? That is so absurd, there is no reason to go into that further but to just acknowledge what it is...a strawman!

 

No, what you have taught me is that the reason man does anything is because God makes him do it. God makes him do it by changing his desire so that man will desire to do whatever God wills.

So, man did not crucify Christ. God willed that it be done and simply used man as a tool. Man committed no sin in the crucification of Christ.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't P4T say this initially? Therefore man is only a puppet in God's will. Interesting thought then if you see it that way.:laugh:

 

The facts of Scripture cannot be denied.

The greatest sin of all time, far greater than any rape or child molsetation or murder, that sin of slaughtering the Son of God was carried out by "wicked hands".

But God foreordained it. God willed the greatest sin of all time to come to pass. God decreed that men would commit the most heinous, immoral, wicked sin of all time.

Does that make God a sinner? No. God's motive was pure, while theirs was evil.

The Bible is VERY clear on this.

 

I understand all that, but your teachings to me have conflicted with this. Your teachings have told me that man does not make any choices on his own. Man does what he wants most and God instills that want into man. So, if man murdered Christ, then it was because God put the want to murder in his heart. Therefore, by your teaching, God is to blame and not man.

I thought you would be happy that I've come to your line of thinking. Instead you seem to now argue against the very thing you taught me!

 

Thank you for a "real" biblical perspective; how refreshing after reading the same old dead horses presented by the Calvinists here.

They continue to "peddle" their ideas because so many of them, not all, seem to have more reverence for Calvin than for God! How sad.

 

Then you have misunderstood me, brother. I have said dozens of times on here that man makes choices and is responsible for them.

But man's choices have causes behind them and indeed the ultimate cause is God.

The fact that God decreed the greatest sin of all time for the noblest of purposes of all time is clear in the Word of God.

The fact that the men who carried out what God decreed did so with the vilest and most blasphemous and wicked of intentions is also very clear in the Word of God.

What do we say to this?

BLESSED BE GOD WHO REIGNS OVER ALL AND BRINGS ALL THINGS TO PASS FOR HIS OWN GLORY!

And bless his holy name that he graciously chose you and I to play a part in this glorious, God magnifying drama whereby his glory will shine brighter throughout the endless ages of eternity!

 

I didn’t mean to scoff, I just find the whole topic of predestination vs. free will rather unavailing and uninteresting. I don’t struggle with it because I don’t think about it. Apparently you have read quite a few of my posts, so surely you know that this is the first time I have ever posted on one of the Calvinism threads. However, using Pontius Pilate to demonstrate the efficacy of Calvinism is so far out I just couldn’t resist.

I had to look up “hyper synergistic soteriology” in the dictionary because these are not words I normally use. I’m still not exactly sure what you mean but I will take it as a compliment. I will say this for you Cal’s—most of you seem very well educated and that is a good thing.

 

I haven't misunderstood you. You just reaffirmed what you have taught me, brother. You just told us that man makes choices, but God causes man to make the choice.

Therefore, man is not responsible for his choices, since they are God made. Man is innocent and has no need for a savior. Thank God for this Calvinist view! I now know that all people will go to heaven for they are all innocent. No a single person has sinned, since God made them do everything they do.

 

Come on, Man is always responsible for his choices. How many times have I read here, illustrations of Joseph & Job. What does Joseph tell his brothers...."you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good (ie, it was for God's providence).

Job's story with God is similar. God allows Satan to mess with him & so Satan tells the Chaldeans (Job's neighbors) to form raiding parties & take Job's livestock & camels away....nice neighbors, right.

Do you think the Chaldeans were not coveting Job's agricultural wealth for themselves long before this celestial contest began?

If you believe man is not evil in his heart & has no responsibility, then your mistaken I'm humbly sorry to say. Then again, I'm not a Pastor but I have studied my scripture & asked myself these questions before. Again I look to Joseph's comments for clarification

 

No, I used to think that man could make choices on his own (included choosing to accept the free gift of salvation). After sitting under Luke's teaching I have come to realize different. I now realize that all choices that a man makes have been directed by God. Whether man chooses good or evil, God is the cause of his choice. Therefore man is innocent of everything. Man does no good or evil. Man is simply a puppet and God is the puppet master.

 

Perhaps the problem here is that most folks make no distinction between calvinism and hyper-calvinism?

Edited to add: Including some calvinists?

 

OK, but I dont think Luke is saying that & I as a Reformed Christian was never taught that so hopefully your not saying Reformed Theology teaches it either.

 

yes you are right. I know of many non-reformed baptists who will not touch Copeland with a ten foot pole.

 

I can only comment on what Luke has taught me. He has taught me that man only chooses things because he has a desire to choose something. He has taught be that man's desires are caused directly by God. The logical conclusion of that is that man is not responsible for any of his actions.

 

I was "driving by" when I noticed something interesting and couldn't help but ask: Are you guys arguing "double" predestination ?

I mean I can understand God wants to create a new world populated by redeemed people whom He Himself elected in Christ from the foundatioon of the world, who are conformed to the image of His Son, under the leadership of His Son, as His Son's inheritance from Him, but you're saying that God pulled all the strings from the fall of man to the circumstances of every individual from then on ?
I mean, come on.
When I was six years old and Catholic, I was ring bearer at my uncle's military wedding in a Roman Catholic chapel, and communion time came and everything was hushed and quiet and it was at that part where the priest was genuflecting and raising the host and the little bell went kring, kring, and my behind went pffffft, pffffftttt, brrraaak, and so that sent everyone in the chapel red in the face, shoulders shaking, faces puffed up and lips puckered up, and everybody behind me out the chapel.
I don't have to tell you the amount of embarrassment I caused my uncle, and the dressing down I got when we all got home, and to a kid, it was very humiliating the words said to me, and God did all that to me ?

I just don't buy that.
I live in a fallen body in a fallen world.
That is not God's design.
Because my body is fallen I get sick.
That is not God's design.
He did not ordain that I fart in my uncle's wedding, nor that somebody close to me be gang raped.

I can believe that as Father He loved me from the foundation of the world, and allowed events to happen (maybe this is what you mean ? He allows them to come to pass) the end result of which is my eventual earthly demise and entry into His kingdom in His own time.

But I cannot see Him double predestinating.
Maybe I'm taking you guys wrong, I don't know.