Poor Pilates Plight

Don, while I think the delivery is off, I believe Brother Luke is trying to deliver a simple message.....that man (in his Heart) means his actions for evil & destruction & God means His actions for Good. Thats all, that simple.

 

good

Its funny that you limit your list to these things.

No you don't get it.

Sorry about that.

Lets work on this some more.

ALL THINGS means the cross too. Right?

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Again...you don't get it. Sin is a rejection of the truth. With no truth, there would be no rejection. When Christ came, he CAUSED men to reject truth.

VERSE>>>Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

PASSAGE>>>
Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Jhn 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Jhn 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Jhn 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The gospel not only SAVES, it also makes a heart HARD

If only you really believed this.

 

I can only go by what our brother Luke has taught me. Luke's exact words are "The Bible teaches very clearly that God is the ultimate cause of ALL THINGS." Therefore, God is the author and cause of sin. If you have trouble with what Luke has taught me, I suggest you address it with Luke.

 

I do get it. As Luke has said, "The Bible teaches very clearly that God is the ultimate cause of ALL THINGS.".

God caused man to reject the truth. Therefore when man rejects the truth it is not man's fault. God caused them to do it! Isn't Good good?

 

Remember, "The Bible teaches very clearly that God is the ultimate cause of ALL THINGS."

If man has evil and destruction in his heart, God put it there. God caused all things. Isn't God good?

 

Last time for me...because it is clear you want to play games.

PAUL SAYS>>>>

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


Now Matt...this is what your point is. right?

So why did Paul say this????

 

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

God causes everything, as Luke has continually pointed out. God causes people to sin. God causes people to rebel against him. God causes people to fart at their Uncle's weddings. God causes EVERYTHING.

 

The thing that seems to be getting lost in this thread about Pontius Pilate is this; it had to happen(Jesus' death on the cross). God foreordained that Jesus had to die to atone for our sins. Whether it was Pilate, "Joe", "Harry", "Mark", "Harry", this had to happen. Let us rejoice in the fact that Jesus died, so that we could live. :thumbs:

 

Bro. Matt has taught me that God loves me and all He does is for my benefit.
That I am the highest affection of God's all powerful ability, His all knowing knowledge, and His everywhere present presence.
In fact He loves me so much He gave me a will, with which I can either reject or accept Him. What a blessed "truth" I get to choose.
THEREFORE......
I choose God. How wise I am for so doing! Glory to me in the highest.


The "flip" side.

But what of the man who chooses unwisely?

Well bless his heart, but that is just the way it is. He made his choice.

But I thought God loved him.
How could God just let him spend eternity in the lake of fire?
You say, because that is what the man chose, after all his will is free to do so!

But I don't understand how the God of the bible would allow such an everlasting choice to be made by a man with a very finite understanding.
Especially when you consider that God said the man's heart(the seat of the mind) was desperately wicked, who could know it.

Well, you might say, the Spirit of God dealt with him. Tried everything even pleaded with the man, but all to no avail the man still said NO!

But how could the man say any thing else? Listen to what God said about this man.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

I mean the man can't say yes. Why not? Because his mind is messed up. The man is the enemy of God.

So how could God really love him?

So what? It is still the man's fault. He chose wrong!

But why?

What made you, with such a natural man mind, choose God?

And what made the other guy, with the same mind, reject God?

 

Thank you Webdog, that was part of the reason why I said it was a strawman argument. The main offense was, "you think you are in control of your destiny, and that God cannot act until you make some decision, or as you say, choose."

It's absurd. I don't think non-reformed adherents think that way at all.

It's as if I said, "People that believe in Reformed Theology like it when babies go to hell."

 

Yes, you are right.

God hates evil.

Edwards says,

Is God the author of evil? Not in the sense that I think of those terms. It depends on how you define "author".

This is what I believe the Bible clearly teaches, as I have shown numerous times.

 

Matt, your continued misrepresentation of what I am saying is beginning to make you look very bad.

Let me ask you: Does light CREATE darkness by withdrawing itself from the room?

 

If it withdraws itself - yes, it creates the absence of light. If it leaves, it has caused it.

I understand what you're trying to say...but language limits the ability to explain it. Keep that in mind when you're rebuking Matt.

There is a HUGE difference between the permission of sin, and the authoring/creation of it.

Edited to add: Perhaps you meant "authorization" as opposed to "authoring"?

 

Don, what would be helpful with Matt is if someone from his side of the issue would lovingly reign him in for the purpose of civil, Christian discussion.

His mockery is a tremendous hindrance to progress in this discussion.

What needs to happen is that we need to make and answer arguments. That is what we are supposed to be doing in a debate.

Just mocking arguments while not even bothering to make counterarguments seems to be quite counterproductive.

 

If you consider light creating darkness by withdrawing itself then, yes, based on your definition, I believe God created sin.

God withdrew himself from Adam SO THAT ADAM COULD SIN.

There is no real good apart from God and there is no real evil that is not the result of God's withdrawal.

Is it possible for sin to enter heaven? No. Not as it now stands.

What would have to happen in order for sin to exist in heaven?

God would have to withdraw his goodness from that particular place where sin is to come to be.

Darkness is not possible in the presence of light.
Evil is not possible in the presence of God's goodness.

God MUST withdraw himself in order for evil to be.

That there IS evil is proof enough that God withdrew himself so that it could come to pass.

That is proof enough that God willed it to be.

I think this Augustinian position captures this idea pretty well"

 

Our responsibility Eccl. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

Free will. I guess we could freely kill ourself, however At some point in time God is going to raise the dead and say let us reason together.

 

Respectfully, I disagree that that verse teaches free will.

A command to do something doesn't necessitate the ability to do it.

God commands all men everywhere in all times to keep ALL of his commandments without fail. He is so demanding that he said that if one offends in just ONE POINT he is guilty of all.

Yet we know that NO man can keep them all all the time.

God commands man to do what he cannot by force of will do.

Why? To make a point.

Man CANNOT keep his duty to God.

This verse actually proves libertine free will to be a misnomer.

Now if you define free will as I do, as the ability to do what one wants, then I believe free will is true and that even sinful man has it.

 

No. God commands man to do what he cannot do in order to lead them to Christ, with Whom all things are possible, not to "make a point".

The Law is our schoolmaster, never meant to save, but only to point the way to the redeemer.

 

Hey I'm one who believes God does the choosing. However Adam did chose to eat of the one tree he should not have and he elected for mankind to decide for himself right and wrong, good and evil. But even at that the Lamb had already been slain so I believe God knew what Adam would do. One thing that always worries me is that in our world knowing right from wrong is the prerequisite for sanity.

God says my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways.

Thank you LORD.

 

Romans 7:13

It was to make a point that we are desperately sinful and need a Savior.

We are not far apart on this.

But by posting that verse you are agreeing with me that God commands men to do what they cannot do to make a point that they need a Savior.

That's the point God makes by commanding men to do what they cannot do.