Pope speaking ex-cathedra abolished Jesuits forever

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Is this current Pope legit - or is the Catholic doctrine of infallibility forever abolished with the election of this current Pope?

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    Dominus ac Redemptor Noster

    Bull of Pope Clement XIV PERMANENTLY suppressing the Jesuit Order.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Given at Rome on July 21, 1773.

    http://www.reformation.org/jesuit-suppression-bull.html


    The pope speaking ex-cathedra in the permanent statement.

    " we do, out of our certain knowledge, and the fulness of our apostolical power,"


    "conforming ourselves to the examples of our predecessors, and particularly to that of Gregory X. in the general Council of Lyons; the rather as, in the present case, we are determining upon the fate of a society classed among the mendicant orders, both by its institute and by its privileges; after a mature deliberation, we do, out of our certain knowledge, and the fulness of our apostolical power, SUPPRESS AND ABOLISH THE SAID COMPANY: we deprive it of all activity whatever, of its houses, schools, colleges, hospitals, lands, and, in short, every other place whatsoever, in whatever kingdom or province they may be situated; we abrogate and annul its statutes, rules, customs, decrees, and constitutions, even though confirmed by oath, and approved by the Holy See or otherwise; in like manner we annul all and every its privileges, indults, general or particular, the tenor whereof is, and is taken to be, as fully and as amply expressed in the present Brief as if the same were inserted word for word, in whatever clauses, form, or decree, or under whatever sanction their privileges may have been conceived. We declare all, and all kind of authority, the General, the provincials, the visitors, and other superiors of the said Society to be FOR EVER ANNULLED AND EXTINGUISHED, of what nature soever the said authority may be, as well in things spiritual as temporal."


    ==========================

    A key part of this ---

    "And to this end a member of the regular clergy, recommendable for his prudence and sound morals, shall be chosen to preside over and govern the said houses; so that the name of the Company shall be, and is, for ever extinguished and suppressed."


    "Further, our will and pleasure is, that though the superiors and other members of the Society, and others interested therein, have not consented to this disposition, have not been cited or heard, still it shall not at any time be allowed them to make any observations on our present letter, to attack or invalidate it, to demand a further examination of it, to appeal from it, make it a matter of dispute, to reduce it to the terms of law, to proceed against it by the means of restitutionis ad integrum, to open their mouth against it, to reduce it ad viam et terminus juris, or, in short, to impugn it by any way whatever, of right or fact, favour or justice; and even though these means may be granted them, and though they should have obtained them, still they may not make use of them in court or out of court; nor shall they plead any flaw, subreption, obreption, nullity, or invalidity in this letter, or any other plea, how great, unforeseen, or substantial it may be, nor the neglect of any form in the above proceedings, or in any part thereof, nor the neglect of any point founded on any law or custom, and comprised in the body of laws, nor even the plea of enormis enormissimce et totalis laesionis, nor, in short, any pretext or motive, however just, reasonable, or privileged, not even though the omission of such form or point should be of such nature as, without the same being expressly guarded against, would render every other act invalid. For all this notwithstanding, our will and pleasure is, that these our letters should for ever and to all eternity be valid, permanent, and efficacious, have and obtain their full force and effect, and be inviolably observed by all and every whom they do or may concern, now or hereafter, in any manner whatever."
     
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Bob..... Ididnt read & study this whole thing....I didnt care too.

    But had anyone in the RCC succeeded in eliminating the "J" from THE CHURCH then they could have kissed Europe Good Bye..... (Poland, Germany, Netherlands, Ireland etc)
     
  3. Zenas

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    If the Jesuits were abolished, how have they continued to operate all their institutions under the Catholic banner? For example, Notre Dame is a Jesuit university and the Vatican has never suggested that it doesn't exist.
     
  4. BobRyan

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    There was a Pope that came along in the late 1800's and re-established the order - as if "ex-cathedra" and "infallibility" are nothing by comparison to the interests of the then abolished Jesuit order.


    "In addition to 1767, the Jesuits were suppressed and banned twice more in Spain, in 1834 and in 1932."

    Interesting how they have been welcomed back - after being irrevocably and ex-cathedra "abolished forever" by the Pope.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Thinkingstuff

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    Just because a Papal bull is declared does not necessarily give it the status of being ex cathedra. That is an error on your part.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    deleted as duplicate
     
    #6 BobRyan, Sep 14, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2013
  7. BobRyan

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    As we all know - The "ex cathedra" phrase was never used by any Pope making supposedly error-free statements.

    And your claim above that this is not a case of a Pope claiming the highest power and authority of his office in making this statements fails on the face of it since the text explicitly argues that point.

    So according to NewAdvent

    Here is the claim of the Pope himself -

    "The pope speaking ex-cathedra in the permanent statement.

    " we do, out of our certain knowledge, and the fulness of our apostolic power,"

    And NewAdvent -- " he defines, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority "

    As I have stated on a number of occasion with situations like this - where I am simply re-stating the obvious - the "unbiased objective reader will notice this detail".

    You cannot solve this problem by ignoring it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Thinkingstuff

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    There are requirements for something declared to be done so Ex Cathedra. Simply being a Papal bull does not fulfill all those requirements. This being the case your view is wrong. The Jesuits did find themselves in trouble with the Papacy at one point but they weren't "gotten rid of". The issues were resolved.

    This is a nonsense comment based on what I've already provided which is once again there are requirements which must be met for it to be Ex Cathedra. It is more than simply a declaration by the Pope. Catholics do not believe every thing the Pope says is "infallible".

    First of all a "Bull" is a form of communication which modern meaning is best presented as a bulletin. An Ex Cathedra statement may be contained in a bull but it doesn't mean a bull is an Ex Cathedra statement. So a bull may or may not contain an Ex Cathedra Statement. For instance the Bull Ineffabilis Deus has many paragraphs but only one sentence is Ex Cathedra.

    Thus just because he states his Apostolic Authority alone isn't sufficient in itself to be consider "Ex Cathedra". There have been really only two pronouncements that qualify. In order to be consider Ex Cathedra, which is a metaphor by the way, He must 1st be reaffirming something that has always been taught by the church from the time of the Apostles, and it must be a matter of Faith, Morals, or Doctrine which takes into consideration these modes: doctrine defined through a council and, if the Pope is not present at the council, ratified by him; and the continual magisterial teaching of the Church. Incanting a specific word order doesn't make it Ex Cathedra. Despite your contention.
     
  9. Bro. James

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    Does this mean diplomas from Loyola University are null and void? This may mean another era of canon law juris prudence.

    Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    Bro. James
     
    #9 Bro. James, Sep 15, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2013

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