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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Feb 7, 2013.
Found this on the web
Open for discussion
Would someone PLEASE explain to me, show to me from scripture this Ten Nation Kingdom that some are looking for?
I really don't get it.
Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Is this fourth beast of Daniel the same as the seventh head of Revelation?
[add] But you never really answered my question, what do you think that it is? How is this 'Ten Nation Kingdom' relevant or to be manifested today?
Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Many believe this passage is connected with Daniel seven and make the conclusion that in the end times there will be a revival of the Roman Empire. But I wouldn't be too dogmatic on that.
I can remember back in the late 1960s into the 1970 that End-Time scholars, particularly the dispensationalists, were fixated on the European Common Market, because it was made up of ten nations. There was little doubt that these were the ten kings. It was also exciting because it meant the end-time clock was ticking. The Roman Empire was reviving. Problem is, the ECM is now the European Union, with twenty-seven nations, not ten. But it took 30 years to get that 10th nation, so who knows, we may still wind up with a 10-nation. confederacy of some kind.
And we haven't even touched the middle east or China, and how they fit in the prophecies.
I agree, except that the Roman empire morphed into the Holy Roman Empire along about the fourth century A.D., and it's remnants are still very much with us today. IOW, we've been in the seventh head for around 17 centuries now and it's still ongoing.
I'm convinced of the correctness of the Historicist view on these passages:
The passage isn't historical. It is prophetic looking toward the future.
1. Both passages predict the coming of the antichrist.
2. Both passages predict the coming of the Lord (not in 4 B.C. or in 70 A.D.)
These events have not taken place yet.
They predict, as Tom alluded to, a ten nation or empire-like world just before the antichrist comes. How that will happen we don't know. But one thing is certain: it is NOT a historical account. It is future. Christ has not come yet and put down ALL the enemies of Israel.
What we know is that the antichrist, on behalf of 10 nations will make a strong (peace) covenant with Israel for 7 years. A reading of Daniel 9:26-27 (part of a passage Jesus mentioned during Matt 24-25) speaks about this. The terms have not been fufilled in history and at odds with the preterist theory.
Jesus fulfilled Dan 9...that is why he made reference to the passage.
no watching for the "little horn":laugh:
I saw the movie....
A Distant Thunder (1978 film)
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A Distant Thunder
Directed by Donald W. Thompson
Written by Donald W. Thompson
Russell S. Doughten
Country United States
A Distant Thunder is a 1978 evangelical, fundamentalist Christian film by Russell S. Doughten and directed by Donald W. Thompson. The film is a sequel to the 1972 film A Thief in the Night, which portrayed the event in Christian eschatology sometimes called the Rapture. These films are part of a four-part series; the story is continued in Image of the Beast (1980) and The Prodigal Planet (1983).
Patty is lying awake one night in a church basement, distraught and scared. She is to be executed the next morning for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast. Patty knows what lies ahead if she takes the mark but can still not believe in Christ. When those around her try to comfort her and encourage her to accept the Lord, she lashes out at them, too scared to think straight. They are able to calm her down, however, and learn her story of how she got to the point she is at tonight....
A horrified Patty has just learned that her husband and millions of others have disappeared in the Rapture, an event she has heard of, but never believed in - until now. Patty desperately seeks to find her friends and family members but most have disappeared.
Patty and two of her friends, Wenda Johnson and her sister Sandy, hide out at Patty's grandmother's and watch devastating world events unfold. Drought, famine, and earthquakes become the norm and Patty and her two friends barely manage to eke out an existence. The three manage to survive with the help of Patty's friends Jerry and Diane (who also appeared in A Thief in the Night), who sneak them food supplies. Even through all these circumstances, Patty refuses to put faith in God, instead blaming God for all the terrible things that have happened to her.
As time goes on, Patty and her friends' livelihood becomes more and more desperate as UNITE, the worldwide government, seeks to destroy those who will not take the mark of the beast. Somehow, they manage to hang on until a supposed friend betrays them to UNITE and they are taken to the church to await their sentencing....
It is now the morning of Patty's execution and she still cannot make up her mind. At one point she almost decides to accept Christ, until she is faced with the guillotine and she learns the surprising identity of her betrayer. This is too much for Patty and she can do nothing more now than scream with fright as her own execution draws near.
How could he have fulfilled it when he spoke of it as a future event still yet to come. It looks like the producer of that movie you referred to knew something you don't.
And then we have the left behind pastor turner who failed to warn the flock'
When daniel spoke of it,it was still future for Daniel....when Jesus said it is finished...it was...and all he foretold in Mt 24 has happened...the abomination of desolation was when the temple was destroyed...enjoy the movie clips
The used to say Henry Kissingger was the false prophet.......now they are looking at muslims. then someone else.
You have to recreate everything .... a temple , sacrifices, rome, all to do what already was done in 70 ad.Jesus gave the last final warning in Mt 24.......revelation confirms it was to happen soon.
I actually sat through these movies in night service years ago....
For all scify lovers-
All events have happened, eh?
I defy any preterist to document when these events happened. Can you quote Josephus, or any reliable historian who witnessed these events? Where is your evidence, not your opinions!
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
You posted to me in another thread.
5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.
This is now fulfilled for all who are savingly in the Kingdom now.
I say you put in bold the wrong segment.
and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
What is the purpose of the elect relative to the kingdom of God?
Is it not to rule and reign over all the earth with the King of Kings, Jesus?
Do you think Jesus and those called by him to rule with him will rule in this manner? For he walked in all the way of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, and in his sin wherewith he made Israel to sin,
These kings taught the people to sin.
The King of Righteousness in the age of the kingdom of God and those called to rule with him, will teach righteousness.
And those being taught will be without a deceiver to deceive them.
I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Did this judgement of the quick and the dead take place in 70 AD?
Where is there judgement and justice on the earth? I would venture to say you can not find God's judgement in most quote unquote churches.
The order of events in Daniel ch 9 puts your version of history in the "revisionist" catagory.
Dan 9:26 the city (Jerusalem) and temple is destroyed by the Romans. You have this part correct.
The end shall come as a flood. A two year seige is not sudden like a flood.
Dan 9:27 Then he shall make a covenant with many...
This refers to a prince coming from those who destroyed the city and temple. Reformed theology in calling this covenenant maker Jesus are simply wrong. Jesus was not a Roman.
Dan 9:27 continues ..in the middle of the week (the 7 year covenant) he (the prince making the covenant) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolte.
First again Jesus cannot be the one breaking the covenant because if Jesus were to break a short 7 year covenant with the Jews than what gives the church any confidence that he wouldnt do the same to us? Second, we are at this time in the prophecy past the distruction of the temple so how could anyone committ the abomination that causes desolation? Answer: the temple or sanctuary has to be rebuilt before the abomination can take place. Unless of course Daniel has his order of events mixed up.
Of course the whole preterist argument lacks any real historical back up and it requires that you basically write off numerous details of Biblical prophecy. None of the dumb and endless links to internet videos and sermons you provide can make up for the lack of missing biblical details and history. Calvin in his writings and the WCF seem to miss the preterist second coming point, did you know that?
Also Jesus when he comes will signal the end of the age Mat 24. If the end of the age ended in AD 70 then how come it took 1900 years for anyone to notice? And if then end of the age is 1900 years past then where are the 12 rulers sitting on thrones judging Israel Mat ch 19? If Jesus returned already why have communion? If the end of the age passed 2000 years ago, how can we still be in a church age since the church was established 40 years before the preterist teach Jesus returned?